World of Coins

The first "NATIONAL TRANSPORT TOKEN" pieces were issued in 1973. I would reckon the 2 latest pieces shown by figleaf will be from the 1970's - I have had mine (think I have both) for a long time.

The earliest British transport tokens must be those older (must be Victorian) oval ones usually with a horse drawn carriage depicted along with legends detailing denomination (several pence), issuer name, town/city and the word "OMNIBUS".

The transit tokens in "early" plastics such as celluloid go back to the 1920's (perhaps a little earlier) and they are usually of the general style of the Johannesburg transit token shown at...

http://www.wbcc.fsnet.co.uk/aftsou4.htm

Somehow there are areas of the country that are yet to get onto the idea of the "National Transport Tokens" - earlier this year I got a piece that at the time I described as follows:-

British Transport Token - Central "50p" with "WOKINGHAM DISTRICT COUNCIL" above-around // two lines centrally "EXPIRES" / "31-03-09" with "CONCESSIONARY FARES TOKEN" above-around. White plastic, same shape and slightly smaller than current G.B. 50 Pence coin (25mm).

Likely that local authority will soon issue tokens that expire at the end of March 2012. But how can such a system be easier/cheaper than the "National Transport Tokens" system ?

From current use - it would seem that there are very few metallic British transport tokens other than the National Transport Tokens.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Quote from: africancoins on December 29, 2010, 11:18:56 PM
British Transport Token - Central "50p" with "WOKINGHAM DISTRICT COUNCIL" above-around // two lines centrally "EXPIRES" / "31-03-09" with "CONCESSIONARY FARES TOKEN" above-around. White plastic, same shape and slightly smaller than current G.B. 50 Pence coin (25mm).

Stafford borough issued plastic tokens upto the introduction of the new national free bus pass scheme, which, thinking about it, would have been early 2007.  I had thought that the district tokens would have ceased at this point but as ever there is exception to the rule.  Wokingham (http://www.wokingham.gov.uk/transport/publictransport/elderly-disabled-transport/travel-tokens-over-70s/) even now offer their own tokens instead of a national bus pass - but they have restrictions, if you have ever had a national bus pass you cannot switch to the tokens.
One wonders with the impending cuts (around 25 to 40%) to the UK concessionary fares budget how much longer these small local authorities will continue to go their own way.  The give away that Peter's aluminium tokens are from the 70's is the decimal 'p' and the value, with an average fare of around £1.55 one would need 78 two pence tokens each time you bought a ticket.

Quote from: africancoins on December 29, 2010, 11:18:56 PM
From current use - it would seem that there are very few metallic British transport tokens other than the National Transport Tokens.

Here is one, a brass token from Darlington, coming in at 1.9 grams, 16.6-17.0 mm. The crown was added to the arms in 1974.

Peter

Ooooooh I like that...I collect transport token and have a strong collection of ferry tokens and passes from Australia.

Also have a few UK and USA transport (bus, train and tram) tokens.

:)

OK, I'll add some plastic tokens to this thread. There is a thread on US transportation tokens here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,6151.0.html) and an Australian transportation token here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,9274.msg64239.html#msg64239). It would be good if you could open a thread on Australian tokens or add to these threads if possible.

Peter

Nottingham's rates look incredibly low to me. The lowest I remember paying for a bus ride to school was 25 cent. At the time there were about ƒ8 to the pound, so I paid 1/32th pound or 7-1/2 penny, while a Nottingham pupil could do the same for a halfpenny.

Peter

Here is a nice series from Newcastle. The colours are brighter in reality, but in this way, the lettering is more legible. All tokens have the coat of arms. Note the placement of the dot and the D on the value side. Diameters vary between 21.8 and 22.6 mm.

Added halfpenny red and pennies blue and pale orange. The blue penny in two varieties is interesting. I wonder why Newcastle needed different colour pennies. Perhaps it was a way to stop reimbursement of old tokens?
Added yet another penny, this one in air force blue, plus a neat 7 pence. The higher values are more difficult to find.
Added three halfpence baby blue, 3 pence with a low D, small dot penny and two sad grey three halfpence that seem to be made from different material and are of different size.

Peter

Here is Accrington's contribution to my happiness. You are looking at a 22.1 mm token.

Fourpence and tuppence added. Arms added. The ship-like object in the second horizontal band from above is a weaving shuttle. The device below that is a textile printing cylinder printing a piece of calico (paisley pattern).

Peter

Kingston-upon Hull issued a black token my scanner couldn't handle. It has the coat of arms in the centre (see below) with "Kingston-upon Hull" above an "city transport" below. The reverse says "10p". Diameter is 25.2 mm.

Peter

I have added the 20p, which has a more merciful colour.
Added 5 p blue
Added 2 p orange and 3 p yellow

East Lindsey is part of Lincolnshire. This toke is 25.3 mm.

Peter

I had never heard of Southport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southport). It's not in the South, but it has public transportation, hence this 22.3 mm token. Decimal tokens of Southport are here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg180234.html#msg180234)

Peter

Quote from: andyg on December 29, 2010, 11:53:26 PM
I had thought that the district tokens would have ceased at this point but as ever there is exception to the rule.  Wokingham (http://www.wokingham.gov.uk/transport/publictransport/elderly-disabled-transport/travel-tokens-over-70s/) even now offer their own tokens instead of a national bus pass -

and not any more. since the new concessionary travel scheme from 1/4/2011 is administered by counties rather than districts (think mid tier government rather than bottom tier) these small local schemes have ended.  I'd be very surprised to find any county issuing their own tokens at the moment, just the national travel tokens.

I have a Wokingham one from not too long ago... description...

British Transport Token - Central "50p" with "WOKINGHAM DISTRICT COUNCIL" above-around // two lines centrally "EXPIRES" / "31-03-09" with "CONCESSIONARY FARES TOKEN" above-around. White plastic, same shape and slightly smaller than current G.B. 50 Pence coin (25mm).

The Newcastle group shown earlier in this topic is typical of the small range of tokens for many other areas.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Unless someone tells me I'm dead wrong, I'll continue to believe that GCT stands for Glasgow Corporation Transport, though it could conceivable stand for Glasgow Corporation Tramways. I was dead wrong. GCT means Grimsby-Cleethorpes Transport. See next post. The token is 22.6 mm.

Added a fourpence and an 18 pence that is the same on both sides.
Added a white return to Immingham; JSCS: John Sutcliffe & Co. Stevedores.
Added a blue return to Immingham; BTDB: British Transport Docks Board. Like the white return, it looks like a grey token painted.

Peter

This "G.C.T." token was issued by "Grimsby Cleethorpes Transport" - introduced 1956. Source: the catalogue by Smith mentioned earlier.

Tokens of "Glasgow Croporation Tramways" were followed by those of "Glasgow Croporation Transport" - a similar thing is seen for many other town/cities.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Thank you Paul. Very helpful.

Peter

tsk, two GCT  :-\
but you're right the Glasgow tokens have the Glasgow coat of arms on.
I'd never heard of Grimsby-Cleethorpes Transport.

Quote from: africancoins on April 26, 2011, 10:39:57 PM
Tokens of "Glasgow Croporation Tramways" were followed by those of "Glasgow Croporation Transport" - a similar thing is seen for many other town/cities.

Yes, the tramways were either damaged in the war or needed much investment to the infrastructure.  So the municipal companies switched to funding buses instead.

Wikipedia mentions that Glasgow's tramway network was once the largest in the UK and the last to be converted to (trolley)bus (1962). The irony is of course that tramways are now rediscovered, though hardly comparable, with traffic-free track, priority at level crossings and traffic lights and much faster cars. They are bridging the gap between suburban light railways and slow and smelly busses.

Peter

OT - but at one time my village had a tram, to take passengers to the local town 6 miles away.
The Burton & Ashby light railway, quite unusual as it was privately operated - it closed in 1929 having operated for just over 20 years, nothing much survives, a few drain covers and maybe two poles.  The last remaining tram is in Detroit USA - sadly in storage since their "heritage line" closed in 2006.

http://www.burton-on-trent.org.uk/?cat=84 (http://www.burton-on-trent.org.uk/?cat=84)

Quote from: africancoins on April 26, 2011, 10:01:20 PM
The Newcastle group shown earlier in this topic is typical of the small range of tokens for many other areas.

Quite so, Paul. Here is a comparable group from Barrow-in-Furness that arrived today. All are around 25 mm. I have sympathy for the utilitarian approach that grumbles respect for taxpayer's money.

Peter

Here are more tokens (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,23322.msg64453.html#msg64453) from the Nottingham series. New tokens added. They are:

• 1d. white no inscription
• 2 d. light grey no inscription
• 4d. yellow no inscription
• 1d. rose EMPLOYEE ONLY
• 1½ d. black EMPLOYEE ONLY
• 2 d. dark grey EMPLOYEE ONLY
• 3d. pink EMPLOYEE ONLY
• 1d. green PUPIL
• 2 d. dark grey PUPIL
• 1d. red GPO POSTMEN ONLY

The postbox red GPO piece is a source of great fun.

Added another batch: 3 pence blue PUPIL, 5 pence black and 6 pence green. Those ovals are cute.

Nottingham's complicated multiple tier tariff (normal, concessionary, employee, pupil) must have been a headache for the drivers and conductors.

Peter

A modern metallic British piece appeared on Ebay the other day - one I had not heard of before. Likely from some time in the past 20 years. The reverse shows a stock design of "Magi Coniature" - token make.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260807207793

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Saving the picture before it is deleted.

I guess WM stands for West Midlands...

Peter

These two tokens are a good counterpoint. North Midlands is a known quantity on the net, but the transport pool seems to have died before the internet. The penny is 26 mm, the 3d and 6d 27 mm.

Peter

Edit: 6d added.

A very nice addition: Manchester. The text on the ribbon is CONCILIO ET LABORE. The colour difference between obverse and reverse is real.

Peter

Added 1½ pence black, 2 pence green and 3 pence orange added. All 22 mm.
Added 2 penny varieties: 1 (12 mm high) aligned on N/S axis and whole denomination aligned on N/S axis, 1 is 10 mm high.
Added ½ penny grey and an intermediate variety of the penny: whole denomination aligned on N/S axis, 1 is 12 mm high.

And another (I am spoilt). Saint Helens is an industrial town in Merseyside. The text on the ribbon is EX TERRA LUCEM (light from the earth.)

Peter

Here's a metallic piece from Sunderland: 22.0 mm, 3.4 grammes, brassy-looking. The Cog reminded me of the arms of another city...

Peter

And one from Belfast @ 6.9 grammes and 22.6 mm. I wonder what the S stands for...

The text on the ribbon is "pro tanto quid retribuamus" - what shall we pay in return for so much. This may not refer to the Belfast public transportation system. ;)

Peter

Going back to Sunderland for a moment here is another with reverse 1 Journey and another for the ferry.

Edited to say the 1 Journey has the same obverse as previous 1 Token.

Here we have an unmistakeable shape for the Vision impaired from Bristol tramways and Carriage Co. 35mm x 23mm black fibre.

Quote from: malj1 on November 13, 2011, 11:54:02 AM
here is another with reverse 1 Journey

That coat of arms belongs to the county borough of Sunderland. Says Wikipedia: Sunderland was created a municipal borough of County Durham in 1835. Under the Local Government Act 1888, it was given further status as a county borough with independence from county council control. In 1974, under the Local Government Act 1972, the county borough was abolished and its area combined with that of other districts to form the Metropolitan Borough of Sunderland in Tyne and Wear.

Look at the central device in the upper band of the shield: there's the cogship.

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on June 27, 2011, 09:37:23 PM
Saving the picture before it is deleted.

I guess WM stands for West Midlands...

Peter

Delayed reaction, sorry. Yes, that's definitely West Midlands. That linked WM was the logo used on the bus tickets when I was a lad getting the bus to school in the West Midlands (1980s).

Quote from: Figleaf on June 27, 2011, 09:41:32 PM
North Midlands is a known quantity on the net, but the transport pool seems to have died before the internet.

It may have been part of Midland Red, which covered (covers?) a huge area of the English Midlands and was therefore divided into regions, much as the post-1948 nationalised railway was. The buses all carried the same general livery but stated which region they belonged to. Andyg may be able to be more specific.

Quote from: Figleaf on November 13, 2011, 11:30:50 AM
And one from Belfast @ 6.9 grammes and 22.6 mm. I wonder what the S stands for...

The text on the ribbon is "pro tanto quid retribuamus" - what shall we pay in return for so much. This may not refer to the Belfast public transportation system. ;)

Peter

It's the city's motto. It also appears on the edge of the Belfast £1 in the City series (http://www.royalmint.com/focus/belfast_coin.aspx).

On the S -- it could mean 'school' -- i.e. it's a discount token for use by kids travelling to school.

Another Belfast with a change of shape - 11 sided.

I'd not come across the North Midland transport pool until I found those - don't know a lot about them.

The Belfast 'S' could be Single Journey (one trip), they exist with 'M' too - which could be Multi journey,
but according to this website (http://www.irish-tokens.co.uk/transport%20all%20thumbs.htm#bcpmetal) tokens with M were for child use......

Further down that page it says might be Minor and Senior.

Here is another for the Belfast Tramways.

Added a halfpenny hard pink (impossible to get it right from the scanner) and a black threepence. Figleaf.
Added a fivepence not in the tramways series. Figleaf

This collection is still growing and getting better. This token is from a series of 1-1/2 (orange), 2-1/2 (dark blue), 3 (brown), 3 (bue-grey) and 3-1/2 (red) pence. The council was wise enough to use the arms without the supporters and helmet, making the design distinguished, rather than busy.

Added: penny and tuppence.

Peter

Edinburgh's included supporters. Compare the split in the lady's dress >:D The motto NISI DOMINUS FRUSTRA means without god, we labour in vain (Psalm 127)

Added a penny (white), 1-1/2 pence (dark blue), 2 pence (red) and 4 pence (blue)
Added a sixpence brown

Peter

The H-shaped hole reminds me of an axis and wheels. I have observed broad gauge (pictured) and narrow gauge.

Peter

Added a 20p with H cutout.
Added a 5p blue. It takes a while to figure out the 2 arrows logo...
Added a 10p red.
Added a 50p yellow with expiration date 1979.

Quote from: Figleaf on March 15, 2012, 06:10:56 PM
The motto NISI DOMINUS FRUSTRA means without god, we labour in vain (Psalm 127)

Don't you love it when organisations selectively pick almost random words out of 'meaningful' texts to use as mottos. Unless you know that the whole quote is 'nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem, frustra vigilat qui custodit eam' (hope I've got that right from memory), Edinburgh's motto is meaningless, even if you know Latin: those three words actually mean 'unless lord in vain'. (The full translation is 'unless the Lord guards the city, he who guards it does so in vain'.)

Quote from: Figleaf on November 13, 2011, 11:30:50 AM
And one from Belfast @ 6.9 grammes and 22.6 mm. I wonder what the S stands for...

The text on the ribbon is "pro tanto quid retribuamus" - what shall we pay in return for so much. This may not refer to the Belfast public transportation system. ;)

Peter

I spotted these on eBay last night. TRANSPORT TOKENS BELFAST TRANSPORT M, S, four varieties VF (A122) CUPRO NICKEL, round 22mm, 23mm; multi sided 24mm, 28mm.

Seller remarks... "In my experience the M 28mm is extremely scarce."

See above where we have the suggestion ...might be Minor and Senior.

A as in adult, or A as in the first letter of the alfabet? Value as advertised seems particularly unhelpful for visitors of the region and a great way to hedge against local inflation for the locals, but it does save the cost of making new tokens when the tariff changes.

10 p green plastic added.

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on March 19, 2012, 09:52:03 AM
A as in adult, or A as in the first letter of the alfabet? Value as advertised seems particularly unhelpful for visitors of the region and a great way to hedge against local inflation for the locals, but it does save the cost of making new tokens when the tariff changes.

Peter

The antonym adolescent came to mind, ;D but I found a very brief mention of a Zone C - a very old eBay listing: "3 x different bus passes Lothian Region Transport Zone C"; so it possible we have three zones namely A, B and C.

In 1975, after the local government reorganisation, Edinburgh Corporation Transport was duly renamed Lothian Regional Transport. The LRT identity remained until January 2000, when the company was renamed Lothian Buses plc, the LRT logo changing to 'Lothian'. (From Wikipedia) So this gives us a maximum possible 25 year window of use for these.

Quote from: Figleaf on April 26, 2011, 01:16:55 PM
Nottingham's rates look incredibly low to me. The lowest I remember paying for a bus ride to school was 25 cent. At the time there were about ƒ8 to the pound, so I paid 1/32th pound or 7-1/2 penny, while a Nottingham pupil could do the same for a halfpenny.

Peter

The trip to my grandmother, about 2 miles, was 1½d for a child [late 1940's] once on my return trip I had lost a ½d so had to walk halfway home....  :'(

A very worthy wartime issue of concessionary tokens to air raid wardens for travel while on duty is this Nottingham 1½d token marked with the initials A.R.P.

The catalogue tells us only two values were issued although in various colours and shades.

NOTTINGHAM 560
NOTTINGHAM   CORPORATION   TRANSPORT (var. )      
AA   0   c   23   Sd   1½d   . A.R.P.   ( orange )    3.00
AB   0   C   23   Sd   1½d   . A.R.P.   (light green)   3.00
AC   0   C   23   Sd   1½d   . A.R.P.   (dark green)   3.00
AD   0   C   23   Sd   1½d   . Corporation Employee Only (yellow)   3.00
AE   0   C   23   Sd   1d.    .A.R.P   (orange) (shades) (var. )      .50
AF   0   C   23   Sd   1½d   . A.R.P .   (blue)      .50
AG   0   C   23   Sd   1½d   . A.R.P.   (dark blue)(shades )      .50
      (A.R.P. tokens   used    by Air Raid Precaution members during WWII)

Birmingham "transport" series, orange plastic, 22 mm. Different style figures.

The arms were redesigned a few times. This version was in use 1936-1977. The legend on the ribbon is FORWARD.

Added a penny red and a three halfpence British racing green.

The Birmingham tramway tokens are here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=14711.msg174842#msg174842).

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on July 22, 2012, 02:15:39 AM
Latest acquisition (thanks, andyg!): Birmingham. Dark green fiber, 1.1 grams, 2.2 mm.

The arms were redesigned a few times. This version was in use 1936-1977. The legend on the ribbon is FORWARD.

Peter

That's my local City where I was born, the arms used to be seen everywhere such as on the buses etc before they were privatised.
Vic

my father passed away last year he grew up in Glasgow in the 1930s and 40s



(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5176.0;attach=25203;image)

Welcome to WoC, zucan. My condolences with the loss of your father.

Thank you for the addition. See replies 15 to 20 for more info on the Glasgow public transportation system and its tokens.

Peter

A hoard of 7040 x Brighton Corporation Tramways post office staff travel tokens in a lock-box is on eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/230835635694?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649) at present.

Note the reverse legend... FOR USE ONLY BY POST OFFICE STAFF WHILE IN UNIFORM

Quote...
The original Brighton corporation tramways metal lockbox containing 122 rolls of travel tokens used by post office staff.
Contains 108 rolls of 60 x brass 1d tokens and 14 rolls of 40 x 1 1/2d metal tokens totalling 7040 tokens in all.
Each token is 22mm in diameter.

See also this thread (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=14711.msg156233#msg156233).

He wants £14 900, which amounts to slightly over £2 a piece. Sounds OK, but you'd be lucky to sell 50 of each type and you won't be able to sell them at all at £149 each. Meanwhile, your average bank would offer at least £300 to 400 annually if you'd put the money on deposit with them.

Peter

At the bottom of the page he mentions he is looking, and hoping, for offers around £1000 which is a much more tempting price and thus bringing them down to 7p each!

If my assumption of a market for 50 sets is correct, the buyer would still have to sell for £10 a piece to get his money back, without any return or redemption of shipping cost. Since it will be known that the token is plentiful, that will be a hard task, but indeed, quite a bit more realistic.

Peter

Not a very informative token. Today, NCT stands for Newport Corporation Transport, but the logo is nowhere in sight. It looks like the logo of an undertaker anyway. Brass, 2.9 gram, 21.1 mm.

Peter

The NCT token is Newport City Transport - these were first used in 1973.....

Info from the relevant Smith Catalogue.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Terrible condition, but a very rare BUSS PASS, Kingston upon Hull, England, G.H. Branton, Buss Proprietor. First time I've even seen a photo of this brass, 23 mm. token.

One in better condition -

http://www.hullcc.gov.uk/museumcollections/collections/search-results/display.php?irn=58815&SearchSubmit_x=1&accessionnumber=&keywords=on&keywordsorig=&placeorig=&titleorig=&sorton=NULL&ImagesOnly=yes&Sender=List&Page=195 (http://www.hullcc.gov.uk/museumcollections/collections/search-results/display.php?irn=58815&SearchSubmit_x=1&accessionnumber=&keywords=on&keywordsorig=&placeorig=&titleorig=&sorton=NULL&ImagesOnly=yes&Sender=List&Page=195)

(http://www.hullcc.gov.uk/museumcollections/emuweb5/media.php?irn=32599&image=yes&width=300)

These are valued at 50 USD in the Smith book from 1990 that covers this area of transport tokens....  Very few in the book are valued higher that this amount.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

From the Hull Museums Collections
Brief Description:
    A bus pass token, circular metal disc, inscribed 'G.H. Branton, Buss Proprietor' and in centre 'Bus Pass'. On the reverse side is the picture of a woman's head with the wording "H. M. G. M. QUEEN VICTORIA"
brass, 22mm

Unfortunate they don't show the obverse, presumably as the imitation sovereigns of the 19th Century. [to Hanover etc.]

Now the Hull Museum has uploaded the local companion buss pass token of J. ION.

Wonder whether Mr Branton was of Scandinavian extraction... The Swedish for 'bus' has two Ss as here. Never come across that spelling in English.

See also Branton's competitor in Hull, J. ION'S BUSS PASS. Also in Brighton, TILLEY'S BRIGHTON BUSSES.

Likewise, occasionally in the US and Canada, see Atwood-Coffee Catalogue.
POST EXCHANGE BUSS SERVICE, Fort Logan, Colorado
RED CHECKER BUSSES, Hilo Hawaii
TWIN CITY BUSSES, Lewiston, Idaho
INTERURBAN BUSS LINE, Port Murray, New Jersey (?)
H.L. DELLIS BUSS LINE, unidentified
GOOD FOR BUSS FARE AND RETURN, Goderich, Ontario

Quote from: Kushi on September 05, 2012, 03:09:25 PM
Now the Hull Museum has uploaded the local companion buss pass token of J. ION.

From there... (http://www.hullcc.gov.uk/museumcollections/collections/search-results/display.php?keywordsorig=on&titleorig=&personorig=&placeorig=&dateorig=&materialorig=&accessionnumberorig=&collectionorig=&museumorig=&keywords=J+Ion&SearchSubmit_x=38&SearchSubmit_y=13&newsearch=new&title=&person=&place=&date=&material=&accessionnumber=&collectionall=all&museumall=all&location=any&EMUSESSID=81equd1gejhcrl175lm029j0m2&portal=9.0.3+en-us+us+AMERICA+C8F98502D6291CF2E0440003BAC324B1+1F7373C6C4234215B93D09924AD18A60225F93886ED8E72E7FC332DB7B78B1E175618E852F096EEE1BE85317B9519C40C97D715D8AE6C615CE67AB82F6E51563993CBF5E19E29BFF771BCAE92704F21B8F264AD067941DE6&Sender=List&Page=&irn=58821)

Oval bus pass with image of a horse and carriage on one side with wording 'J. Ion's Buss Pass'. Reverse has Hull crest and wording ''J. Ion, Carriage Builder'.
Brass, 20mm X 27mm          

BTW bus plural is busses in English

edited to add size.

I was wondering if "BUSS" was perhaps short for something else - "Business" perhaps, but the nice picture of the carriage convinces me that they could not spell.

"Buss"....

Well often on older tokens the word is "omnibus" but not sure that was ever "omnibuss".

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

I have seen clubb and mobb in 18th century texts, so why not buss? Unified spelling is a recent invention.

Peter

Acquired these a week or so ago at Charing Cross: Derby Corporation Omnibuses prepaid tokens for 1d and 1½d. The other side of both is blank.

1d: 27.1 mm, 5.58 g, 8-sided
1½d: 26.3 mm, 5.51 g, round

Any thoughts on date?

Good catch! The old metallic ones are good fun.

In view of the price level and style of execution, my guess would be 1930s. At the time, Derby had trolleybuses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby#Bus_and_coach)...

Peter

...and by the time of WW2 had changed to plastic tokens.

I imagine the term omnibus had disappeared by this time too.

Quote from: malj1 on October 31, 2012, 05:47:40 AM
...and by the time of WW2 had changed to plastic tokens.

There is a decimal series of these Derby tokens struck in Brass...  Peter has one somewhere :)

See:

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,9613.msg70745.html#msg70745 (tramway)
http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,9613.msg86769.html#msg86769 (omnibus)

Peter

Glasgow! 1.0 grams, 21.3 mm, chocolate brown fiber (colour changed by increasing contrast).

Halfpenny blue-green (Glasgow Tramways) added.
2 stage bright red (Glasgow Tramways) added.

Peter

Wallasey, series of four, about 1 gram, 25.2 mm. Wallasey is opposite Liverpool on the Mersey.

Added a green-blue penny (note the placement of the dot) and a blue tuppence. I also have a purple 1-½ pence. It may be the original colour of the 1-½ pence black (Voice calls it grey,) though.

Peter

The 1990 Smith and Smith catalogue also includes a twopence dark blue token and a twopence blue token. This may be the same token with a different exposure to the elements.

Thank you, Kushi. I am having a hard time findin a catalogue of UK transportation tokens.

Here is Wolverhampton. Black resin, 1.2 grams, 25.0 mm, one-sided.

Peter

Edit: 4 denominations added.
Edit: penny added.
Edit: 6 pence added

Quote from: andyg on October 31, 2012, 09:32:20 AM
There is a decimal series of these Derby tokens struck in Brass...  Peter has one somewhere :)

Here is an oblong brass 3p for D.C.O.D. employees. 29.7 X 25.6mm blank reverse.

Derby Corporation Omnibus Dept. used Feb 15 1971 to 1979 Smith & Smith 240BS

Nice post. It's the first time I've seen metal GBR token denominated in P. pence.

Air force blue plastic, 22 mm. Which town, city, borough or corporation uses these arms? I think I see a castle with a large central tower flanked by two smaller towers.

Peter

This token shows Bury's old arms, but it is difficult to see. It is 22.1 mm, 1.0 gram.

Peter

Added halfpenny and tuppence. Tokens are of a darker shade in reality.
Added 1 ½ penny black. Picture is lightened.

Peter

Closest I've got so far is Newcastle under Lyme, Staffordshire:

(http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/newcastle_lyme_fbc.JPG)

... but it's not that close. The supporters on your token look more like horses or deer than lions, for a start.

BTW this heraldry site (http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/index.html#top) will probably be useful in identifying obsolete borough arms on transport tokens, if you don't know about it already.

No cigar yet. The castle (or city wall) with three towers is a common symbol on medieval coins and I don't see water below the castle on the token. I think the supporters are panthers, but supporters are more flexible than heraldic symbols on the shield. The arms are possibly no longer in use.

I checked the arms of the issuing authorities on the black and blue pennies listed in "tram and bus tokens of the British Isles".

Peter

looks very similar to Wigan,Lancashire ?  now obsolete with the new arms being completely different

Wigan's old arms were granted on April 28, 1922, but were based on earlier seals and devices.
The crowned castle, king's head and couchant lion all come from ancient seals. The supporters are royal lions, made distinctive by holding branches of the rowan or Wiggin tree, a pun on the town's name.

The motto - ANCIENT AND LOYAL - refers to the antiquity and history of the Borough.

Bingo! Thanks, capn.

Peter

Could be a tram rather than bus token, hard to be sure how old the token is being plastic.
Here is a list of all UK Civic heraldry

http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/a-z.html#top (http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/a-z.html#top)

 Here is a nice condition green 4d from Wigan on which you can read the motto 'Ancient and Loyal' on the ribbon at the base of the arms along with another blue 1d.

I believe the Wigan tokens were all tramway issues.

I notice the 1d reverse is quite different to  that shown above in reply 70.

The following two are a whole new strain of thought. Rather than NATIONAL TRANSPORT TOKEN, the legend has become BUS TOKEN. To make sure you grasp that they are not national tokens, a name is added, the district of Wyre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyre) and the town of Carlisle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlisle,_Cumbria). Is the national system falling apart?

Both tokens are aluminium, the 10p is 31.0 mm, 3.0 grammes, the 2 p is 25.7 mm, 2.0 grammes. Both sides are the same.

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on December 29, 2010, 09:43:03 PM
The following two are a whole new strain of thought. Rather than NATIONAL TRANSPORT TOKEN, the legend has become BUS TOKEN. To make sure you grasp that they are not national tokens, a name is added, the district of Wyre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyre) and the town of Carlisle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlisle,_Cumbria). Is the national system falling apart?[/url]

These actually predate the national system, first we had metal tokens in the 30's, moving to plastic by the 60's (though some persisted until as recently as 2005), then these aluminium one's from the early 70's. The National tokens came next and are still in use  :)

Quote from: Figleaf on April 26, 2011, 02:49:19 PM
Here is a nice series from Newcastle. The colours are brighter in reality, but in this way, the lettering is more legible. All tokens have the coat of arms. Note the placement of the dot below the D on the value side. Diameters vary between 21.8 and 22.6 mm.

Very belatedly, my selection of Newcastle Corporation Tramways tokens, picked up at various markets on a trip "home" in 1997: a couple of different denominations to those illustrated by Peter, and my 5d seems a much deeper pink and the penny quite a dark purple.

Hmm, we don't seem to have a thread on New Zealand milk tokens yet ...

Quote from: translateltd on December 27, 2012, 06:01:25 AM
Very belatedly, my selection of Newcastle Corporation Tramways tokens, picked up at various markets on a trip "home" in 1997: a couple of different denominations to those illustrated by Peter, and my 5d seems a much deeper pink and the penny quite a dark purple.

I think my 5d may be an even darker shade of pink. I have a few but none that are not listed already.

Quote
Hmm, we don't seem to have a thread on New Zealand milk tokens yet ...

This will be your province,  ;D I don't have any and I see there are only eleven listed in Smith & Smith; nearly all of which they rate as scarce and command a decent price.

Berkshire, 5p, yellow plastic. Seventies? 26 mm.

Added 25 p.
Added 10 p.

Peter

Quote from: translateltd on December 27, 2012, 06:01:25 AM

Hmm, we don't seem to have a thread on New Zealand milk tokens yet ...

I now see you say 'milk' my reply was in relation to transport tokens.

QuoteHmm, we don't seem to have a thread on New Zealand milk tokens yet ...

This will be your province,  ;D I don't have any and I see there are only eleven listed in Smith & Smith; nearly all of which they rate as scarce and command a decent price.

I only have a WCC cream token.

Quote from: Figleaf on December 27, 2012, 11:42:50 PM
Berkshire, 5p, yellow plastic. Seventies? 26 mm.

Peter

I have two of these, the other is much lighter; it does not appear faded more like its from a different batch of plastic.

Two varieties 'lemon colour' listed by Smith and Smith at Newbury 543BG. 5p concessionary token was used Dec 1 1975 to June 24 1983

Quote from: Figleaf on December 26, 2012, 11:59:13 PM
The following two are a whole new strain of thought. Rather than NATIONAL TRANSPORT TOKEN, the legend has become BUS TOKEN. To make sure you grasp that they are not national tokens, a name is added, the district of Wyre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyre) and the town of Carlisle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlisle,_Cumbria). Is the national system falling apart?

Both tokens are aluminium, the 10p is 31.0 mm, 3.0 grammes, the 2 p is 25.7 mm, 2.0 grammes. Both sides are the same.

Peter

I have a 2p from Wyre, perhaps earlier, along with another similar from Fleetwood also 2p, Aluminium 25.5mm., both being the same both sides. Fleetwood is a town within the Wyre district of Lancashire, England, also a seaside resort, serving as a quiet contrast to nearby Blackpool.

Quote from: Figleaf on November 19, 2012, 09:21:28 PM
Glasgow! 1.0 grams, 21.3 mm, chocolate brown fiber (colour changed by increasing contrast).
(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9613.0;attach=29154;image) (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9613.0;attach=29153;image)
Peter

I feel that one you list is plastic, the size implies plastic too.

I have four of these 2 Stage tokens in plastic in varying shades of red, 21.5mm., along with one larger fibre token, 23.7mm that is quite different, the reverse having much larger font.

Edit; Another Glasgow 2 stage added today. rev. legend nicely spaced - see right-hand token the other is left-hand in Epa3054; obv see space between upper and lower legend.

Another from Glasgow is that for the Subway Railway 1d white plastic, 25mm. [enhanced to show the lettering more clearly]

A blue halfpenny is also known.

Quote from: malj1 on December 28, 2012, 12:41:23 PM
I have four of these 2 Stage tokens in plastic in varying shades of red, 21.5mm...

There is also a noticeable difference in the 2 -- the first two have a squashed digit compared to the other two.

Yes I should have mentioned that, also the other two vary in the position of the 2. The third appears to match that posted by Peter.

I see two major die varieties: S above T and S between T and O. There is also a squat 2, which seems to coincide with the second type while the first type can have a squat or a normal 2. I think the 2 was made with a separate punch, to facilitate production of other "denominations", so the position of the 2 is not so important to me.

Peter

I agree, however there was no 'single' STAGE, only the 2 STAGE. There is also a lemon yellow and 2 black 2 STAGE listed along with several halfpennies and three pennies, all in a variety of colours, for the tramways.

Scottish Transport Tokens by Ronnie Breingan devotes a whole chapter to the history of the Glasgow Corporation Tramways but does not explain the use of these 2 stage tokens.

Both are 25 mm. Darwen is near Blackburn and in the general Manchester area. Maybe a trip to Manchester was 5d?

I lightened the green token to show its arms better.

Peter

Another, this time a  three-halfpenny for Darwen, 26mm. the Coat of Arms is nearly worn flat so darkened a little.

Three LCC tokens, Halfpenny, penny and tuppence. The only values but each came in variety of colours, all 22mm. 1889 is probably a foundation date.

London County Council ran its own extensive tramway system from 1899 to 1933 until London Transport was formed on 1 July 1933.

My most vivid recollection of the london trams was a stopover at Lee Green of about ten minutes duration whilst the changeover from three rails to the overhead wire system used in the outer areas was made. Much of the system used a conduit system of electrical current, as the metropolitan boroughs had the power of veto on the installation of overhead wires.

Great going, Malcolm!

Here is a penny from Ilkeston, blue-green, 30 mm. The other side is blank.

Peter

The large Ilkeston token may be a scarce piece, it is not listed in Smith; plus there were only 13 trams in the fleet.

The first public tram ran on 16 May 1903. The tramway was bought by the Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways Company in 1916 but the routes of the two companies never joined (and being different gauges, this seemed an unlikely proposition). Tram services ceased in 1931.

More. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilkeston_Corporation_Tramways)

Voice does have it. It is the only piece from Ilkeston he mentions. Your details (trams with different gauges!) are precious.

Peter

Many thanks for the photo and information. Marvelous.

Oldham is not a global scale metropolis, but you'd almost believe it from the bewildering varieties in their tramway tokens. The yellow penny (sounds like a Beatles song) is slightly over 22 mm, the baby pink halfpenny is a tad below 22 mm. Oldham is an agglomeration near Manchester. The owls in the arms are a pun (owldham), not a reflection of the wisdom of the textile workers wanting to use public transportation to Manchester with these tokens. The arms were changed (date not clear) since, replacing the rose by a third ring.

Four variations of the penny and three of the halfpenny added.

Peter

Elsewhere, I posted tokens from Kingston-upon-Hull in decimal pence. This halfpenny is dark blue, but I lightened the image to show the arms with the three crowns. This token is 25 mm.

Added tuppence red. I found two varieties. I think they were made with different technologies. The differences that are the easiest to see are the place of the shield relative to the legend and the dot relative to the 2.

More varieties. Compare the size of the 2 and the placing of the dot on the three-halfpence and the penny

Added threepence grey and fourpence blue-green

Peter

this isn't really about the tokens, but it is contemporary with their use...
Anyhow if it doesn't belong here it can be deleted again!

http://www.route-one.net/ (http://www.route-one.net/)

RETROSPECTIVE: JIM HULME
WHEN FIDDLING WAS RIFE
In the fifth in his series of Life on the Buses articles based on his 50 years in the bus industiy, Jim
Hulme reazlls the days before electronic ticket machines put an end to some dubious practices.

I really can't believe the scams that I came across during my years at Greater
Manchester PTE when it was still a bus operator. Although some attempts were farcical, others were nothing short of fraud.  The PTE discovered that drivers were able to get into the workings of the Almex 'A' ticket machines, and by removing a lead seal they could wind back the counters which showed how many tickets had been sold and how much money had to be paid in. In this way a driver was able to understate sales and pocket the difference.  There is an apocryphal story that the scam was discovered because a driver somewhere was winding his machine numbers forwards instead of backwards. This meant, for example, that if he had sold £100 of tickets, and he thought he had wound the machine back to show sales of only £80, he was able to pocket £20. By winding it on instead the takings showed that he was due to pay in £120. By his own wrong manipulations the driver was now £20 short in his takings!

Back in the 1970s Bolton was chosen as a test bed for the advance purchase of discounted tickets. Passengers were able to buy books of 2p tickets at a discount of 33%. which were then used to pay the full fare in lieu of cash. The driver issued a ticket to the value of the sale and at the end of duty paid in a combination of cash and 2p tickets and accounted for sales in terms of cash/tickets taken against value of sales.

I was greeted one morning by the head cashier who informed me that a driver had paid in 100 consecutively-numbered discounted tickets. The driver had bought the tickets himself and then had substituted them for cash taken from passengers. In effect he was buying cash at a 33% discount! He genuinely thought that he had done nothing wrong. I naturally dismissed him and he lost his subsequent appeals.

A very sad occasion had all the ingredients of a Brian Rix farce. The widow of a driver at Bolton who had recently died came into the offices to return her husband's uniform and other items belonging to the organisation, including what she described as his 'spare' ticket machine!

In another spare machine fraud, a driver at one of my Manchester garages stole a ticket machine and doctored it so that tickets printed from the official machine and his 'spare' machine showed the same identification number. So if an inspector boarded a bus everything appeared to be in order. The driver would run a series of journeys using his own machine, and then would print off the same number of tickets from the official machine at lower values, and so when the driver paid in his cash takings everything appeared to be in order, and he was in the money. What he hadn't bargained for was an eagle-eyed Inspector, who picked up a ticket from the floor of the bus and noticed that the ink density was heavier on that ticket than on the tickets held by passengers.

In the early '70s the method of revenue collection at many locations amounted to nothing more than an honesty box. 'Johnson boxes' involved the passenger placing coins through a slot into a 'see through' plastic container in the view of the driver. No ticket was issued and therefore there was no check as to whether the passenger had paid the correct fare. The driver was then required to operate a lever whereupon the cash dropped into a sealed vault.
it will come as no surprise to know that passengers loved the system because in effect they were paving the fare which they deemed appropriate. Drivers loved the system too. Chewing gum stuck on the end of a knitting needle was the favoured option of lifting coins from the plastic container before they had been consigned to the vault.
it was decided, therefore, to introduce ticket machines across the GMPTE network which meant that the Johnson boxes would go and passengers would be issued with a ticket.
A fares increase coincided with the introduction of the ticket machines, and we had calculated the likely level of resistance, which showed that while passengers would be lost, income would increase.
The outcome was devastating. Not only were passengers lost, but income was lower than it had been before.
The reason was simple. Where a passenger had been due to pay say a 4p fare under the old system, and had paid only 2p, an increase from 4p to 5p actually meant a 3p increase. We hadn't calculated the effect on the large number of people who were paving substantially below the required fare and for whom the increase was two- or threefold! •

www.route-one.net
Thursday 10 January 2013 25

Fine period piece. Thanks, andyg!

Peter

That is a great addition to the story of how fares are charged.

However my maths are not up to working out this last paragraph unless they lost a great number of passengers:-

QuoteThe outcome was devastating. Not only were passengers lost, but income was lower than it had been before.
The reason was simple. Where a passenger had been due to pay say a 4p fare under the old system, and had paid only 2p, an increase from 4p to 5p actually meant a 3p increase. We hadn't calculated the effect on the large number of people who were paving substantially below the required fare and for whom the increase was two- or threefold! •

A hideously fluorescent green 20p that needed heavy computer manipulation before the texts became visible, but with an interesting feature: 90° die rotation! Since it fits with the L (Leicestershire, geddit?), probably thought of as a security feature. 27 mm.

Added 50 p orange.

Peter

There are separate posts for tramways tokens, celluloid tokens and miner's bus tokens from Sheffield. Use the index to find them. This post is for non-celluloid, pre-decimal transport department tokens.

Added a six-sided threepence in the same colour as the round variety.
Added a whitish halfpenny.

Peter

I have good memories of Dundee, ranging from an outstanding garden, high up on a hill, to the hulk of a three-master down below. Here is an additional one. A 22.5 white fiber penny (no, it's not ivory ;)) with a long-suffering (where have all the flowers gone, as Marlène Dietrich sang) coat of arms.

For the Dundee Tramway tokens look here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg142623.html#msg142623)

Peter

Added 2, 3 and 6 pence.

What is "fiber" Peter? Is it a kind of plastic or a resin?

I have used fiber as a neutral word for an artificial material. The token probably dates from sometime between the two world worlds, so it's too easy to call it plastic (http://inventors.about.com/od/pstartinventions/a/plastics.htm). Plastic was known from 1908, but plastic mass-produced products mostly date from (well) after 1945, e.g. I grew up in the 50s and 60s without plastic toys.

Peter

5 Y.E.B 1½D 25mm Blue plastic. Smith & Smith, Wakefield 800 BF

Used by employees of the Yorkshire Electricity Board.

YORKSHIRE (W.D.) ELECTRIC TRAMWAYS LD 1½D 22mm white plastic Dewsbury 242 AJ

YORKSHIRE W.D. TRANSPORT CO LTD  3D 22mm lemon plastic Dewsbury 242 BT

W.D. = Woollen District

Any ideas of date for this little fellow?

Before 1958. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberdeen_Corporation_Tramways)

Peter

Halfpenny fare says very early. Probably pre-WW1. another in the same style was for military use. 

Aberdeen Corporation Tramways Opened 27 August 1898 closed 1958
Aberdeen Suburban Tramways Opened 23 June 1904 Closed    9 June 1927

Material....  the really old looking "plastic" tokens in this series are celluloid or something rather similar... More recently pieces are a more modern plastic... maybe there is another plastic material inbetween....

For plastic pieces there are two possible methods of manufacture... something like... older pieces.. "hot-melt" where the material is pressed into with something hot from each side.... Then the pieces from 1970's onward (perhaps a little earlier too) are injection moulded and will have a pip on the edge...  There could always be another method used at some stage during the 20th century. Not too certain on all of this.

As for fibre.... The last piece shown in reply 85 of this topic could well be the only fibre piece in this topic. Very few British transport pieces are made of this. I think there are also a few co-op tokens made from fibre. It may be easier to find a fibre U.S. Sales Tax token - that series includes plastic, metal and fibre pieces.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Celluloid dates from about 1885 and until the early 1920s was one of the commonest plastics around. After this, up to the time of WW2, transport tokens were made using a cheaper alternative of cellulose acetate which is a development of the earlier Celluloid. As Paul said the injection moulded type came in later; I would suggest late fifties early sixties.

By the 1940s plastics were found in almost every home especially in electrical equipment and fittings but if you take a look at the Plastics Historical Society (http://www.plastiquarian.com/) page you can see tons of plastics stuff.

A very early fibre token is this grey one from Sheffield. Another in black fibre may be seen here. (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,9613.msg83974.html#msg83974) this has a very distinctive shape for use by the vision impaired.

Penny red added.

Tell us about these tokens?
In what years they were used?
Thank you.

The first two are denominated in decimal pence, so after 1971, but probably not for very long after (especially in the case of the 1p) -- so probably 1971-late 70s.

The other three are denominated in old pence, so before 1971, but more specific I am unable to be.

Tokens.

Quote from: FosseWay on February 25, 2013, 07:05:16 PM
The first two are denominated in decimal pence, so after 1971, but probably not for very long after (especially in the case of the 1p) -- so probably 1971-late 70s.

The other three are denominated in old pence, so before 1971, but more specific I am unable to be.

Thank you FosseWay!

Who can add information?

Quote from: orsk2 on February 27, 2013, 05:43:02 PM
Who can add information?

For the Kingston Upon Hull Corporation Transport see 'The Official History Of Kingston Upon Hull City Transport' A Brief History. (http://hullcitytransport.co.uk/id1.html) which in fact is a huge history.  ;D

I did not find the actual tokens but a skimmed over a bit so may have missed these. I did find he has used dew i/o due about twenty times which is rather irritating.

It seems the Kingston Upon Hull Corporation Transport name change to Kingston Upon Hull City Transport was made in 1972 so the two decimal pieces you show would have become obsolete the year after they were introduced. The coat of arms on the tokens were modified at one stage, I am guessing it may have been in the 1930's however a thorough read of the article may reveal when this change occurred; Your pieces are of this latter design.

Morecambe & Heysham Corporation
The history (http://www.freewebs.com/lancaster_buses/morecambeheysham.htm) of the council owned public transport operation in Morecambe & Heysham that can trace its origins to the Morecambe Tramways Company that began operating in 1887. The story is told right through to the amalgamation with Lancaster's bus operation in 1974

October 1928 saw the amalgamation of Heysham Urban District Council with the Borough of Morecambe to create the new Morecambe & Heysham Corporation.

The Morecambe & Heysham Corporation depot passed to the control of Lancaster City Council from April 1st, 1974.

 Wallasey Corporation Motor Buses.

Wallasey Council/Corporation Tramways existed between 1902 and 1933 when they were superceded by Wallasey Corporation Motor Buses. Major Robert Roughley Greene was general manager from inception to 1923.

The trams were built by Brush & Co of Loughborough and when, at inception a representative of Brush & Co enquired of a representative of Wallasey Council what colour the trams should be painted, the answer came, "see Greene". Taken literally, the Brush & Co rep. reported back that the trams were to be painted sea green. The trams were indeed painted a "muddy" green & cream.

On the 1st December 1969, the 75 buses of Wallasey Corporation were merged with the neighbouring fleets of Birkenhead and Liverpool Corporations to form the Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive, bringing to an end almost 70 years of independent municipal operations in the borough of Wallasey.

More here. (http://www.petergould.co.uk/local_transport_history/fleetlists/wallasey1.htm)

Wolverhampton Corporation Transport Department.

This name appears to date from the late 1920's through to 1969 when the corporation transport department closed and the routes and vehicles were taken over by the West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive along with the fleets of Walsall, West Bromwich and Birmingham, though in effect the PTE was just an enlarged Birmingham City Transport under a different name.

More here. (http://www.wulfrunian.net/wolves.htm)

Southport Corporation Transport 1900-1974

31st December 1934, the last tram ran in Southport [Southport Tramways Company] so around this date I surmise the name changed to Southport Transport. On the 1st April 1974, the transport undertakings of these two municipal operators were absorbed into the Merseyside PTE, and at midnight on the 31st March 1974, Southport Corporation Transport passed into history and almost 75 years of locally controlled municipal services ended.

More here. (http://www.petergould.co.uk/local_transport_history/fleetlists/southport1.htm)

Thank you very much malj1!

Matlock is centrally located in the centre of England. ;) It is built on hills, making motorised transportation popular. From July 1971 to March 1974, the Matlock Urban District Council issued 6 rectangular tokens. Happy to say I got some of them. They are 38 x 25 mm.

Peter

Quick question to the UK transport token collectors out there: Where do you get these goodies from? Last time I looked on British eBay (admittedly a while ago) the number of transport tokens was very limited. Likewise in the online lists of dealers that I frequent. Conversely, I've got Swedish transport tokens coming out of my ears because they're easily come by on both Tradera (Swedish eBay) and at dealers.

But the good people of Matlock got tired of rectangular tokens. The last two are round. Here is the blue variety.  One day, I'll have the red one too 8)

And sure enough, here it is. Plus a later token (both sides are the same.) I have great friends!

Peter

Quote from: FosseWay on March 30, 2013, 04:28:18 PM
Quick question to the UK transport token collectors out there: Where do you get these goodies from? Last time I looked on British eBay (admittedly a while ago) the number of transport tokens was very limited. Likewise in the online lists of dealers that I frequent. Conversely, I've got Swedish transport tokens coming out of my ears because they're easily come by on both Tradera (Swedish eBay) and at dealers.

A search on UK eBay for British transport tokens today reveals 56, at other times there are more; just recently two large collections have been sold on there.

Uptread (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,9613.msg137861.html#msg137861) is a later series of Dundee public transportation tokens, also showing the Dundee arms. These tokens still refer to the Dundee tramways. The halfpenny (23 mm) is noticeably larger than the penny (22 mm).

Added a penny in a different material.

Peter

We already have a thread, complete with coat of arms, on Edinburgh transportation tokens here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,9613.msg98433.html#msg98433), but this addition is special. Three different types of 5, D and •, attesting to the enduring usefulness of the tokens as well as how they got lost, so that new tokens had to be ordered from time to time. It was an extra income for the Edinburgh Corporation and now provides joy to collectors.

Peter

For other denominations in the Yorkshire woollen district series see this post (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,23322.msg137961.html#msg137961).

Penny red (transport) and 1-½ pence pale green (tramways) added

Peter

This fantastic token is currently on eBay; BRADFORD. CITY TRAMWAYS. signed FATTORINI & SONS reverse BRADFORD. DISTRICT NURSES. ONLY TO BE USED WHEN ON DUTY

Smith & Smith list it at Bradford 115D and suggest it is bronze and 31mm. - the size of an old penny.

Another that is difficult to identify, bearing only arms and denomination, are the tokens from Blackburn, Lancs.

They show the city arms with ARTE ET LABORE on the ribbon. This type are listed as R4 = 121-600 known.

Edit;
Motto 'ARTE ET LABORE' - By skill and labour.
Granted 14th February 1852, to the former Borough of Blackburn.

The Borough of Blackburn was formed by the amalgamation of the County Borough of Blackburn, the Borough of Darwen, part of the Turton Urban District and the parishes of Yate and Pickup Bank, Eccleshill, Livesey, Pleasington and Tockholes from the Blackburn Rural District.

from... http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/cumbria_palatine_counties.html#blackburn%20bc (http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/cumbria_palatine_counties.html#blackburn%20bc)

Another Glasgow 2 stage added today. rev. legend nicely spaced - see right-hand token the other is left-hand from above in Epa3054; obv see space between upper and lower legend. I.E. G to T

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9613.0;attach=35745;image)

See here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg131737.html#msg131737) for original discussion.

May I ask what is Epa3054?

Part of Epa3054 is the left-hand token.

See the link below the image to this Reply #85 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,9613.msg131737.html#msg131737)

Rotherham is an industrial town in Yorkshire. The text on the ribbon means "thus industry flourishes". I like the way this token has worn, acquiring some smudge in the process that accentuate the lettering.

For Rotherham county borough tokens, see here.

Peter

Darlington is a railway town, at one time pivot on the Darlington & Stockton railways (one of the first train is at the top of the arms,) later best known as one of the train stops between London and York. This token has exactly the same colour as the Rotherham token above. I suspect one factory got the lion share of the market.

The arms were changed in 1960. The 1974 edition of the arms is shown here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg64412.html#msg64412).

Added ½d black, penny red, 2d yellow. Picture was lightened to show detail on the halfpenny. Note to the Daily Mail: those are the colours of ze Djerman vlag!

Here's a surprising addition: a token with different arms. They are the 1976 arms of the Borough, not the city of Darlington, as on the token above.

Peter

You wouldn't know it from this token, but the arms of Ipswich are a climbing lion left and three ship hulls right. Indeed, Ipswich is one of the Cinque Ports (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinque_Ports), your best bet of remembering the French word for five. ;) The motto on the ribbon is MVNIA CIVITAS DECVS CIVIVM: the role of the city is the honour of the citizens.

Added 1-½ penny black (colour changed to increase contrast.)
Added 2 pence yellow

Peter

Here's a charming pair that is different from the "mainstream". They are slightly eccentric, not struck in a collar and apparently, the die was too small for the flan. The metal is quite thin and light. The brass penny is 2.6 grams, the aluminium half threepence is 0.9 grams. Note the different numbers one in the denomination. I suspect they came from separate punches. I think these tokens were locally made.

See also this post (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=14711.msg114384#msg114384).

Peter

Here are some decimal value from Sheffield. Stamp collectors: here's your chance to own a black penny :)

5 pence light blue added (mine is probably somewhat discoloured)

Peter

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23322.0;attach=32531;image)

More from Sheffield. Note the word Tramways.

Added a three halfpence grey and halfpenny white. Note the missing dot in the denomination.
Added a halfpenny blue and two halfpennies for pupils. The two school tokens look the same, except for the colour. Variety or type?

Peter

West Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive (WYPTE) is not in Voice - so might not be a fare token, but it did exist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYPTE). That said, I have no explanation for the hole or for SOV. ST.  According to Wikipedia, they had no stop that fits that text.

Peter

SOV ST probably refers to the Leeds City Transport, Sovereign Street Depot in Leeds City Centre. [Part of WYPTE]

This depot was changed to minibuses only in the mid 1980's and now appears to have been sold for redevelopment.

Quote from: Figleaf on June 27, 2011, 09:41:32 PM
These two tokens are a good counterpoint. North Midlands is a known quantity on the net, but the transport pool seems to have died before the internet. The penny is 26 mm, the 3d and 6d 27 mm.

Peter

Edit: 6d added.

Anyone out there know where these tokens (North Midland Transport Pool) were used?
Smith (1990) has under Nottingham, but I think that somewhat unlikely as Nottingham had their own tokens.

Voice has them under Nottingham also. At the time, national bus companies and their regional affiliates operated side by side with local bus companies. One of the national companies was Midland Red North (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arriva_Midlands), with a depot in Nottingham.

Peter

I think that's a logo combining the letters ATC...

Peter

Smith confirms the monogram ATC but does not indicate what the C could be.

Previous issues were Aberdare Urban District Council, followed by Aberdare Tramways [also with ATC monogram]; then Aberdare Transport in use only from Feb 15 1971 to Aug 31 1971.

I'd say ABERDARE CORPORATION TRAMWAYS  :-*
Be aware I know nothing of transport tokens but see
http://www.birches.plus.com/page2/page5/page66/page66.html    ::)

And do remember I am Welsh 8)

No real conclusion there, possibly it could refer to Aberdare Council Tramway? ...reduced from Aberdare Urban District Council Tramways. Or even the Aberdare Tramway Company?

Owner   Aberdare Urban District Council
Opened   9th October 1913 (electric)
Operator   Aberdare Urban District Council
Closed   1st April 1935
Length   5.77 miles
Gauge   3ft 6ins

If you look at the other Corporation Tramway operations at that time they seem to go for the functional and somewhat grandiose .

Quote from: Figleaf on November 06, 2013, 01:04:59 AM
Voice has them under Nottingham also. At the time, national bus companies and their regional affiliates operated side by side with local bus companies. One of the national companies was Midland Red North (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arriva_Midlands), with a depot in Nottingham.

Peter

Nope, we (I still work for them) have never had a depot in Nottingham. :-\
Nottingham still has a municipal (Nottingham City Transport) which is council run and then a private company (Trent).  Trent were nationalised, but not until 1968 then sold again after 1986 act.

Your right in that "pool" refers to a mix of private bus companies / council municipals pooling their resources, so this token was used by more than one operators - at the present moment we just don'understand fully where.  It is unlikely to be Nottingham itself.

More here on licensing in the area...
http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/31st-july-1953/25/protection-money (http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/31st-july-1953/25/protection-money)

Yes may have had too many glasses last night so having read the London Gazette of 1921 this morning, I'm plumping for Aberdare Council Tramways.  See http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/32398/pages/5845/page.pdf

Leeds City Transport. 1d large arms. White but well used thus dirty which helps to show the legend. 22.7mm.

Picture of ½, 1-½ and 3 pence added

Birmingham 1d
These are recorded as two types in some reference books -
with and without "forward" under the arms.

Isn't one just poorly made rather than it's own type?

I think I would call it a variety rather than a type.

I notice the Smith's refer to types, varieties and shades - with the latter two I wonder where one ends and the other begins?

Taking London for example - types listed are;
1d -
light red
red
dark red
maroon

with no indication of how to tell them apart...

That also applies to other entries in many other catalogues with descriptions such as "larger font' or 'smaller font' for instance.

See this image from a review of Machine tokens, referring to this....

It gets to the point where you can create your own shade of colour with some bleach or by putting it out in the sun. ::)

Sure, it is difficult to get the same shade of plastic twice, unless you follow a precise recipe precisely (Lego does), but is that a variety? My approach is that the only thing that counts is a shade that is darker than normal and can be distinguished without having to compare it with normal shades side by side.

Peter

Barrow insists to add "in Furness", or its transportation company would have been known as Wheels of Barrow. Anyway, they think it looks hot. It seems like at one time the regular fee was threepence and postmen and employees paid half. Then, the fee doubled...

added: penny yellow employee, penny orange postman, 5 d yellow.
added: 2d black postman, 2d air force blue employee, 3d green value not outlined. Picture lightened considerably to show design on the black piece.

More tokens of Barrow-in-Furness here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=14711.msg175889#msg175889).

Peter

A second post for Birmingham to add a highly interesting double thickness penny. Feels like a different material (celluloid?), looks like it consists of obverse and reverse halves, "welded" together.

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on November 13, 2013, 02:05:55 AM
A second post for Birmingham to add a highly interesting double thickness penny. Feels like a different material (celluloid?), looks like it consists of obverse and reverse halves, "welded" together.

Peter

This is listed as a separate type by Smith at 80AE.

He also lists a green penny and a dark green three-halfpence with the same remarks: (very thick)

Chesterfield thought different. They decided to put the quite attractive central device of their coat of arms, a heraldic pomegranate tree, on their transport tokens. Heresy! Fortunately, they had second thoughts for a later series and did the usual arms/denomination thing. Just in time to be saved from the pillory, one hopes :)

Peter

A slightly austere piece, but one of the older tramway tokens.

Peter

There are many differences, because of a different font size, dot size and placement of the legend. The best way to distinguish them if you have one copy is to look at the direction of the vertical bar of the E in EDINBURGH. On the left, it points at the centre of the ball on the 3. On the right, it points at the top of that ball.

Peter

A series of 25mm (1 inch) tokens from Leigh is here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg179576.html#msg179576). The tokens in this post are 22.225 mm (7/8th inch). Leigh is 8 miles due West of the Manchester ring road. Fun detail: according to Google maps, there is no direct bus connection between Leigh and Manchester. You have to take a bus to Wigan first >:D

Fourpence green added.

Peter

The common side of the London tokens is here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,23322.msg131978.html#msg131978). This post may partially overlap.

The lighter halfpenny has an incuse outlined denomination. The placement of the dots in the denomination is different on the two red pennies. There are other subtle differences also.

Peter

OLD BERT AND BILL / BUS SERVICE Brass, 22.7mm.

Bert and Bill were Bert Everard and Bill Potter who ran an early bus service in Carlisle using a small converted T-model Ford, both Londoners they had met in the army.

The tokens were used as tickets and were sold to passengers at the rate of seven to one shilling.

Information from an article in the TCS Bulletin Vol.5 No.9 of Sept. 1996.

Cutie! A story worthy of Disney. Not in Voice.

Peter

There is a post for Nottingham tokens already, but this one is good enough for its own post. This token is marked A.R.P. which means that it was meant for air raid precautions wardens. Nottingham, unlike Walmington, is not by the sea, but I can still see warden Hodges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dad's_Army_characters#Chief_Air_Raid_Precautions_Warden_William_.28Willie.29_Hodges) use this, managing to make it a token of the extraordinary power invested in him :)

Peter

The Plymouth arms were redesigned some time after 1925. The tokens show the old arms. There are two arms sizes. On the red token, the tail of the right lion aligns with TI. On the white token, it aligns with AT. The denomination side comes in several versions. The 2 penny token is slightly smaller and thinner than the others. It looks like another production process was used.

Added an TI aligned 5 pence baby blue.
Added three versions of the 1 ½d red, a black penny with a broad, outlined 1 and a tuppence brown. All are TI aligned.

Peter

Preston took the central elements of its coat of arms as main device for its bus tokens. PP is said to mean Princeps Pacis (prince of peace). My first thought was Prestonis Patronas (patron saint of Preston). The Lamb is the device of St. Wilfrid who is the Patron Saint of Preston.

Added a dark blue one stage token. The text is different;y aligned. The quickest way to distinguish the two alignments is by the E in ONE. On the blue token it is left of the G underneath. On the black token it is to the right of the G.

Peter

Rochdale was once a textile economy (hence the wool sack on the arms,) but it has become a commuting town in greater Manchester. I have a second black token with what on a coin would be called 180° die rotation.

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on November 15, 2013, 03:09:03 PM
There is a post for Nottingham tokens already, but this one is good enough for its own post. This token is marked A.R.P. which means that it was meant for air raid precautions wardens. Nottingham, unlike Walmington, is not by the sea, but I can still see warden Hodges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dad's_Army_characters#Chief_Air_Raid_Precautions_Warden_William_.28Willie.29_Hodges) use this, managing to make it a token of the extraordinary power invested in him :)

Peter

I distinctly remember showing my Nottingham Corporation ARP three-halfpenny here too, it seems to have dropped off. (see Wartime Nottingham (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg101115.html#msg101115)) A nicer shade of blue this time - but otherwise the same.

For use during WW2 by Air Raid Wardens, but only when on duty. Other colours are known Orange, Light green and Dark green; also an Orange 1d.

All these different issues leads one to speculate that they may also have been issued to the  Home Guard [Dads Army] too. Mainwaring would have had a hand in this!

Salford's arms have changed since this token came about, but it remains a confused hotchpotch. Today, it is a borough within greater Manchester.

Even in good light, black and white tokens all look alike. So why are there so many of them?

Peter

From Sheffield we have the:

WALESWOOD COLLIERIES MOTOR BUS 2d red celluloid, 21.7mm another is known in Maroon, both are (R9) = 2 - 4 known.

A very nice image of the bus can be seen here (http://killamarsh.org/photo-gallery/waleswood-colliery-pit-bus-photo-courtesy-of-astrid-north/).

Added bus tokens for the West Thorpe and Oxcroft mines, also near Sheffield. Both sides are the same.

What is the W.S.T.? I suppose the W. and T. are West Thorpe, but what is the S.?

The Smiths (1990) have this listed as England 685 BW.

Just quoting Voice. Booth & Fisher was a bus company, based in Eckington, specialised in transporting miners. Voice lists a number of Sheffield area mines served by them: High Moors (HM), Kiveton Park (KP), Oxcroft (OC), unknown (RPK), Waleswood (black on blue token) and West Thorpe (WST). They do not have a denomination.

Peter

Got it. I'm presuming this is West Thorpe.

South Shields is Newcastle's sea port, which explains the arms supporters (sailor, commerce) as well as the boat, that would typically be used to transport the crews of big ships. The anchor is still there, but the flags were replaced by a helmet some time after 1925. For the series with TRANSPORT, rather than TRAMWAYS, see this post (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg183811.html#msg183811).

Added a dark blue halfpenny. Colour lightened to increase visibility.
Added a yellow double penny and a light blue halfpenny. Variety or type?

Peter

Surprisingly, the coat of arms used in the tokens of Sunderland is quite hard to find. I presume it was unofficial and not registered. I found it on the access gates of Mowbray Park: a sextant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextant).

Peter

Here's a 2d token for employees that I don't think has cropped up here (or in the main UK transport tokens thread) yet. The other side is blank.

Brass, 32,5 x 23,4 mm, 5,73 g

Smith England 240BM with the note rarity R6 (i.e. 21-50 known). Slightly odd that this one should have cropped up in Sweden.

The 2d employee in Smith is listed has having those stamped numbers,
yet they also exist without them.  Makes me wonder what the purpose of said numbers was.

Quote from: Figleaf on November 17, 2013, 02:26:51 PM
, unknown (RPK),
Peter

RPK = Renishaw Park Colliery Line [from Smith and Smith]

Furnace Hill & Renishaw Park Collieries Ltd. Registered Office: 53, Norfolk Street, Sheffield

Here is a RENISHAW PARK COLLIERY BRASS MINERS CHECK from there. [not a transport item] from eBay.

Quote from: Figleaf on November 17, 2013, 02:26:51 PM
Just quoting Voice. Booth & Fisher was a bus company, based in Eckington, specialised in transporting miners. Voice lists a number of Sheffield area mines served by them: High Moors (HM), Kiveton Park (KP), Oxcroft (OC), unknown (RPK), Waleswood (black on blue token) and West Thorpe (WST). They do not have a denomination.

Peter

See Booth & Fisher (Motor Services) Ltd. (http://www.petergould.co.uk/local_transport_history/fleetlists/booth1.htm) for a history of the company.

Thank you, Malcolm. My copy of Voice will be better than a new one :)

Here's another series to have fun with. The Yorkshire Traction Company (YTC). The colourful tokens are already a bit different: both sides are the same. However, the second series is mind boggling: not the colour, but the size differs with value.

Peter

Quote from: andyg on November 17, 2013, 05:22:12 PM
The 2d employee in Smith is listed has having those stamped numbers,
yet they also exist without them.  Makes me wonder what the purpose of said numbers was.

If it is the employee number, then it is quite possible the unnumbered specimens are the unissued remainder that were sold for scrap after they were no longer required.

Here come the tokens of Basingstoke and Deane. Each with an expiry date (to end contingent liabilities, I suppose). Cute detail: the square on the green variant, making sure you can't just paint an old token and recycle it. ;)

Pounds red (2005), salmon (2006) and orange (2010/11) added.
Pounds blue (2006/07), red (2007/08), purple (2008/09) and blue-green (2009/10) added.

Peter

Blackburn turned into Blackburn with Darwen in 1974, but the arms remained the same. The denomination and the heraldry are arguments for a date before the merger, so we can tentatively decide on 1968-1974.

Peter

Cannock Chase is a district about halfway between Stoke-on-Trent and Birmingham. The C on the purple token is not a cancellation but part of the design.

Peter

A clear continuation of the pre-decimal tokens. Inflation would hit hard.

Peter

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23322.0;attach=40144;image)

A confused token. Voice lists it under Cotswold, which is one of the nicest places in England to visit as long as it doesn't rain. However, the C cutout is an indication that it should really be listed under Gloucestershire. When the C is in the correct position, the Gloucestershire side is up. Moreover, Cotswold is part of Gloucestershire. If the token were valid only in Cotswold, some passengers would want to use it elsewhere in Gloucestershire, to the chagrin of bus drivers :o

Peter

10 pence red  and 20 pence green added.

Cotswold isn't in itself an administrative division. The area generally known as the Cotswolds includes parts of the counties of Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire, Worcestershire and Warwickshire. Some of those (certainly Gloucestershire) have sub-authorities that include the word "Cotswold" in their title.

I would imagine the 'C' on this and the earlier listed Cannock Chase token would represent 'Concessionary'.

Search for Cotswold District Council (http://www.cotswold.gov.uk/) on Google says: Cotswold is a local government district in Gloucestershire in England. It is named after the wider Cotswolds region. Its main town is Cirencester.

Derby, of brass token fame, finally ran out of ammunition casing and went for plastic. O.A.P. means old age pensioner. Only a civil servant can think of a term that contains two thirds redundancy. ::)

Added two much bigger (29 mm) tokens: 3 p with the OAP reverse and 10 p with blank reverse

Peter

North Dorset is in the South of England, North of Bournemouth, as UK Decimal + would know. :P This may have been the most horrid colour available to the district council :)

Peter

Eastleigh is curled around Southampton. Geographical names defy the compass in this part of the world. :)

Peter

Northavon was a district in the county of Avon from 1974 to 1996.

Peter

After decimalization, Edinburgh continued its bus token programme while it still could. The obverse is the same as the one shown here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,23322.msg98433.html#msg98433).

Peter

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23322.0;attach=21422;image)

Glasgow, a social disaster area at this time, maintained its bus token programme.

Added two specimen of the green penny. Lighter token is slightly larger, it has a more pronounced edge rim and the arms are slightly smaller (compare the distance between the first T of TRANSPORT and the arms). What I find interesting is the field, which is completely smooth on the darker token and rough on the lighter one. I suspect that they were made with different production techniques.

Peter

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23322.0;attach=38711;image)

Grimsby-Cleethorpes. Another place that carried on after decimalization...

Peter

NO, UDC is not UK Decimal Coin, but Urban District Council. The Urban Districts were wiped out in 1974 by the local government act. Hornsea is a village near Hull, on the British East coast.

Peter

Quote from: Kushi on November 17, 2013, 01:56:17 PM
What is the W.S.T.? I suppose the W. and T. are West Thorpe, but what is the S.?

The Smiths (1990) have this listed as England 685 BW.

Westthorpe is just one word which makes a little more sense of the WST.

Now the mine is closed and the area has become Westthorpe Hills. This countryside site where Westthorpe Colliery used to be is now transformed and is a great place for both people and wildlife. More here  (http://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/leisure/countryside/countryside_sites/wildlife_amenity/westthorpe_hills/default.asp).

Nottingham, known in dee times for its oval tokens, mysteriously started using a pentagon (US military) and a hexagon (France) in pee times (note the word "new" in the denomination.) There must be a sublimal message somewhere... :)

The mystery deepens by a circle (1 p white) and a square (4 p blue)

Peter

Here are the only tokens from Oxfordshire, which is where the UK hides half of its best rowers. ;) Note the different fonts used for the denomination.

Peter

Evidence that plastic bus tokens are still with us: a Portsmouth pound with an expiry date in 2013! Too recent to be listed in Voice.

Peter

Remarkably, the p-tokens of Plymouth still have the old arms (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg162598.html#msg162598)...

Added penny bronze colour and penny brass colour with different font.

Peter

These are the arms of the county borough. New arms were granted in 1983. See this thread (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,23322.msg156086.html#msg156086). I like the ice-cream colours. :)

Peter

Ryedale's (North Yorkshire) contribution to this series. The fine, clear script appeals to me.

20 p sea green added.

Peter

Interesting token from Staffordshire. It looks like the two halves of the mode shifted slightly. Note how, if you hold the token correctly, the cut out E is in the correct position on both sides.

Peter

Stroud hadn't played its last card with this token. It crept up on a national transportation token you can see here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,6397.msg54110.html#msg54110).

Peter

Thamesdown is both a borough (Swindon and surrounding area) and a bus company. The green of this token is part of the livery of the busses.

Peter

No LIKE available button here, but a big thanks and BRAVO for all the photos and information about the many recent plastic tokens from all sorts of British local authorities. Keep them coming. Terrific.

Thank you, Kushi. I am just your humble administrator, but I have fantastic friends all over the globe who help me.

Maybe you'll find the index handy. It needs more work, which I shall do in due time, but, together with the pictures, I think it allows further research.

For one thing, there is a pattern evolving where the late d-tokens were put together with generic reverses and what may have been a city seal. This means, that a patient type can sort out those generic reverses and maybe connect them to a token producer and maybe even a time period. Another point is the diameter, sometimes clearly non-decimal (22 mm = 7/8 inch and 25 mm = 1 inch), sometimes decimal (e.g. 20 mm). My guess is that they point at different machinery, made in Britain or elsewhere.

Mapping the places of issue might be useful as well. My working hypothesis is that you'll most often find them in big cities, industrial and mining centres and small ports: all having pockets of deep poverty. That again makes it strange that there are few or no bus tokens from Scotland (except Edinburgh and Glasgow), Northern Ireland (except Belfast) and Wales.

Another area that needs more work is the colours. It's relatively hard to read these tokens, especially in lamp light. They must have been difficult to check. Yet, there are surprising numbers of fixed colour/size/denomination combinations, such as 1 d, 22 mm, red. It looks like an open invitation to cheat...

I am hoping that one day someone will be inspired by this thread to dig into such issues and come up with answers and numbers.

Peter

Warrington is on the river Mersey, not far from Liverpool and Manchester. The tokens have the pre-1974 arms.

5 p and 10 p added.

Peter

It's nice when they are dated. Every year a new colour, I suppose. See also this post (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,23322.msg54183.html#msg54183).

Added a 50p blue (2007) and orange (2008)

Peter

Yorkshire Woollen District, presumably in its final iteration. You have to love the baby colours. :)

Penny brown added.

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on November 30, 2013, 11:46:11 PM
Warrington is on the river Mersey, not far from Liverpool and Manchester. The tokens have the pre-1974 arms.

Peter

And they clearly can't speak English there, either. "One new pence", indeed...  ::)

Seems one size fits all! cheapskates.  ::)

Quote from: Figleaf on November 28, 2013, 05:46:30 PM
Evidence that plastic bus tokens are still with us: a Portsmouth pound with an expiry date in 2013! Too recent to be listed in Voice.

Peter

See here - http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/portsmouth-council-criticised-for-scrapping-bus-tokens-for-disabled-passengers-1-5707780 (http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/portsmouth-council-criticised-for-scrapping-bus-tokens-for-disabled-passengers-1-5707780)
So the end of the Portsmouth ones.

The other recent issues in this thread -

Wokingham - ceased when funding was switched to mid tier local authorities in 2011.
http://wokinghamlibdems.org.uk/en/article/2011/480256/outrage-at-way-wokingham-travel-tokens-axed (http://wokinghamlibdems.org.uk/en/article/2011/480256/outrage-at-way-wokingham-travel-tokens-axed)

Basingstoke too it seems -
http://bdover55sforum.btck.co.uk/Campaigns/TravelConcessions (http://bdover55sforum.btck.co.uk/Campaigns/TravelConcessions)

I think that might just be it (for the moment at least)

Now we go back to the early 20th century, before WW1 for this 32mm, bone brown printed token.

AVAILABLE ON METROPOLITAN ELECTRIC TRAMWAYS 1^D; the reverse has an advertisement: SHOP HERE AND SAVE MONEY EDMONDS BROS., WOOD GREEN. with a view of a large building.

Smith 475AD describes it as white Celluloid but this is incorrect as it is definitely bone. the size too is 32 not 35mm.

He also includes the remarks "No. 9C Reed" no idea where this comes from! ...possibly its another collectors reference?  ???

I humbly believe the the Smiths listed a different token. Their piece must have had the No. 9C REED inscription and been 35 mm. I would seem unlikely that he made an error on both items.

It is quite possible that the token quoted was 35mm as the size of the bone tokens does vary somewhat. These type of pieces are often mis-described as celluloid, plastic, ivory, etc.

Quote....the reverse has an advertisement: SHOP HERE AND SAVE MONEY EDMONDS BROS., WOOD GREEN. with a view of a large building.

Edmonds Brothers Drapers were established at 102-112 High Road, Wood Green c. 1897. It later acquired Denham & Goyder who were located next door at 114-120 High Road to form Edmonds Denham & Goyder Ltd.

Two tokens from Booth & Fisher; a bus company, based in Eckington, that specialised in transporting miners.

BOOTH & FISHER K. P. Uniface, yellow plastic, 25.5mm. K. P. Kiveton Park Colliery was a coal mine in the village of Kiveton Park, near Rotherham, South Yorkshire, closed 1994.

BOOTH & FISHER R P K consimilar, yellow plastic, 22.2mm. R P K is from Renishaw Park Colliery. Closed 1989.  see Reply #198 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,23322.msg162775.html#msg162775) and 199 for a history of the company.

See also   Reply #192 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,23322.msg162704.html#msg162704)

It doesn't happen very often any more that we get to add a first token of a city, but Bradford wasn't in the data base yet. City seal and denomination are boringly standard. However, I like the motto on the ribbon below the armes that has a liberal (progress), conservative (industry) and socialist (humanity) part :)

Peter

For my "punishment", here's another newcomer. In case you were wondering, the asclepius refers to the thermal sources of Buxton, used since Roman times by well developed Roman ladies, who gave the town its name. ;)

Peter

Bradford Tramways penny fare. Black Fibre. The arms at top vary a little to the arms shown perhaps an earlier design. see Reply #238 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=23322.msg174392#msg174392)

Bradford Corporation Passenger Transport halfpenny and penny, The arms at top vary a little to the arms shown perhaps an earlier design, while the penny is different again?.


These two may have been shown before.

Aberdeen Corporation Transport 1d light blue; 3d yellow; 4d brown. all 22mm.

Added 6d dark green. Peter

The South Wales Transport Co. Ltd. 1½d rev. County Borough of Swansea Police Brass, 29.5mm, 8.2g.

Wow Mal

Great images. I have always found these very difficult to scan or photograph.

Keep up the great work.

Kushi

Grampian (better known as Roinn a' Mhonaidh ;)) was a local government region from 1975 to 1996. The logo with thistle was in use 1986-1996 (see discussion below).

Peter

Both sides are the same. I think the C stands for concessionary rate. Darwen was subsumed in Blackburn in 1974.

Peter

We already have a post on Glasgow tokens in decimal pence here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=23322.msg162894#msg162894), but this one deserves a place of its own, if only because it is unlisted in Voice. Both sides are the same. First Glasgow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Glasgow) serves the Greater Glasgow area. You are looking at an impressive 30 mm token.

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on April 11, 2014, 08:02:20 PM
Grampian (better known as Roinn a' Mhonaidh ;)) was a local government region from 1975 to 1996.

Peter

More on GRT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grampian_Regional_Transport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grampian_Regional_Transport)
Privatised in 1989.

Is the thistle a clue as to whether the token was used in the privatised or pre-privatised days?

Peter

According to this page - https://www.flickr.com/groups/1096314@N21/discuss/72157626082973972/ (https://www.flickr.com/groups/1096314@N21/discuss/72157626082973972/)

The logo came with the green and cream livery introduced in 1986- none of the older buses have the thistle, but all of the later ones do.  In 1996 this was switched to the first bus "f".

Much appreciated, andyg. This is now one of the best dated tokens.

Peter

David Voice lists under Toy Tram/bus token a ½d FARE token for a toy conductors play set.

Here is the companion 1d FARE bracteate iron, 31.9mm.

Fine discovery token, Malcolm! Thank you. Voice says the halfpenny is tin.

Peter

We have seen a few Urban District Council tokens, but here is one of a Rural District Council, its complement. It is fittingly functional and austere.

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on April 12, 2014, 02:21:52 PM
Fine discovery token, Malcolm! Thank you. Voice says the halfpenny is tin.

Peter

Much heavier than tin at 6.4g and measures 1.2mm thick.

Newbury is halfway between London and Bristol, but its bus network depended largely on nearby Reading.

Peter

Rugeley may be a picturesque old town, it still needs busses and tokens for "assisted travel", bureaucratese for having someone put your wheelchair on and off the bus.

Peter

A Stafford Borough Council issue. Not in Voice.

Peter

Tayside was another region that existed only between 1975 and 1996. Its coat of arms is hard to find in colour.

Peter

Tewkesbury has more history in its abbey alone than other towns of its size in all their buildings. The tokens are modern and functional, though.

Added 20p green.

Peter

edited to add:
Orange issue added, 24.8mm; we must find how they dated these. The orange is listed in Smith # 782BC putting it to pre-1990 - also in Voice
Malj1

Glasgow Corporation Transport has issued two varieties of the 2d black token, the normal type with the small CoA and another with a larger shield to the CoA and a much wider spaced legend. It is in fact a different CoA.

The reverse of the second piece has a slightly smaller 2d denomination. They measure 22.2mm and 22mm respectively.

I would imagine the possibility exists to find similar varieties in other values from Glasgow.

Added ½ penny blue-green, 1-½ d yellow, 3 d red and 4 d pink. The threppence looks like it was produced with a different technology. The D has no full stop. Figleaf

Witney Urban District Council used a surprisingly large (30 mm) fourpence.

Peter

Whitney or Witney? Location please.

No H. Witney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witney).

Peter

Aberdare's ATC monogramme dates from pre-decimal times. The T is therefore likely to be for Tramways. Aberdare Tramways Corporation?

Peter

How about ACT = Aberdare Corporation Tramways?

See discussion here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=14711.msg161434#msg161434). T was changed from Tramways in Transport but logically, you can only have Aberdare Tramways Corporation (a public enterprise in Aberdare) or Aberdare Council Tramways (a service of the city council). The index will tell you at a glance that the Corporation formula was far more popular. Only London used the Council formula.

Peter

Here are the Tramway tokens from Birmingham. The pre-decimal Transport, where you can see the arms and the common obverse, is here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,23322.msg112450.html#msg112450). I have found three different arms sides:

• female arms supporter does not hold a palette. Motto on ribbon. Big dot, partly underneath 1.
• female arms supporter has belt and outlined palette, faint or no motto. Dot aligns with 1.
• female arms supporter has no belt and faint palette, clear motto. Dot aligns with 1.

I now have a belt and no belt variant of the 1½d green also. On the belt variant, the denomination is written with a dash. On the no belt variant it is written with a dash. The two are slightly different in colour.

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on April 17, 2014, 11:23:59 PM
See discussion here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=23322.msg161434#msg161434). T was changed from Tramways in Transport but logically, you can only have Aberdare Tramways Corporation (a public enterprise in Aberdare) or Aberdare Council Tramways (a service of the city council). The index will tell you at a glance that the Corporation formula was far more popular. Only London used the Council formula.

Peter

Original name was Aberdare Urban District Council Tramways...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberdare_Urban_District_Council_Tramways (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberdare_Urban_District_Council_Tramways)
Tramway closed 1935.

Quote from: Figleaf on April 13, 2014, 01:14:06 PM
A Stafford Borough Council issue. Not in Voice.

Peter

These date late 90's to c2001 - I used to have to count them and send to Stafford Borough to reclaim the money on behalf of the bus company I work for....

Voice is dated 2011. I am happy with the discovery token. :thumbsup:

Peter

Another series of Barrow-in-Furness tokens is here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg162441.html#msg162441). I suspect this design came later. The word "transport" is not on this type.

Added 1½d red, 2d light blue, 2½d brown, 4d grey.

Peter

Voice assigns these tokens to Gateshead, but according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_General_Transport_Company), although the initiative was taken there, the first depot of the Northern General Transport Company was in Chester-le-Street and Gateshead was serviced by the Gateshead and District Tramways. Even curiouser is that the 3 pence and 4 pence are the same, except for the number in the denomination. Bus drivers must have had a hard time separating the two, especially after dark. I have two different shades of the 3-pence, bright red and dark red.

Peter

According to Smith - these were issued by the Durham Education Committee for pupils travelling to the Shipcote girls school (closed 1964)

Funny what you find when not looking...
This (http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/25th-july-1969/47/flat-fare-fails-but-tokens-stay) is all about the Sunderland token scheme (started 1966)

Good info on the Sunderland token. It is indeed a bit odd, compared to the others. If I have read the Sunderland article correctly, the Northern General busses would do at least partially the same routes as the Sunderland busses. Both issued non-round tokens, but they were different in size and colour.

Wikipedia says Northern General expanded along the Newcastle-Gateshead-Chester-le-Street axis. Durham looks like a possibility at the outer edge only. Moreover, I can't imagine a token system for one school that is not even mentioned on the token, but I can easily imagine misreading how the school also used the tokens, so with all respect for Smith 2, I'll keep the mind open.

Peter

Plenty of sheep in the Huddersfield arms, a textile town between Leeds and Manchester. Workers would have needed transportation to the job. Fortunately, they have high level support. The motto on the ribbon, Juvat impigros Deus, means god defends the diligent. So there.

Peter

Maybe Hull has changed. What I remember is a gritty town, smelling of tar and rotting fish. A place where people know what it means to get a living out of the sea. The token (it's uncompromisingly black, but my scanner cannot handle that) is utilitarian. Both sides are the same. No flourishes, not even serifs. My kind of place.

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on July 01, 2014, 08:49:56 AM
Good info on the Sunderland token. It is indeed a bit odd, compared to the others. If I have read the Sunderland article correctly, the Northern General busses would do at least partially the same routes as the Sunderland busses. Both issued non-round tokens, but they were different in size and colour.

The article states -

QuoteAdmittedly, although tokens were not accepted on Northern General buses, the company did sell 12-journey tickets giving a similar discount.

Bus services were highly regulated until 1987 - so each company, be it municipal or commercial had their own "operating area", and if their routes strayed into another area (for example Northern running into Sunderland corporation area to serve the city) they were not allowed to board passengers.

QuoteIt will be seen from the above that the token system is quite simple, administratively. (Representatives of Belfast City Transport recently inspected the Sunderland system.) As for the joint services in outer areas of the town, Sunderland Rural District—served by Northern group buses—was added to the County Borough on April 1, 1967.
However, the Northern group is now part of the NBC and under the Transport Act 1968, the group has the power to co-operate with neighbouring undertakings. Initially, talks are taking place with Northern concerning the acceptance of both tokens and SCT concessionary passes on joint services.

Nice comment about Belfast - they did indeed introduce a very similar token scheme....

---

More from 1972 here
http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/24th-november-1972/23/pte-fares-for-sunderland (http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/24th-november-1972/23/pte-fares-for-sunderland)

QuoteDespite a generous discount (16 per cent), the use of fare tokens was reported to be diminishing; the system is losing about £.100,000 a year and the PTE would like to see it abandoned.

Quote from: Figleaf on July 01, 2014, 08:49:56 AM
Wikipedia says Northern General expanded along the Newcastle-Gateshead-Chester-le-Street axis. Durham looks like a possibility at the outer edge only. Moreover, I can't imagine a token system for one school that is not even mentioned on the token, but I can easily imagine misreading how the school also used the tokens, so with all respect for Smith 2, I'll keep the mind open.

I would imagine the 3d was not in use at the same time as the 4d?
Durham education committee would have covered the county of Durham - not just Durham itself, Gateshead itself was in Durham county.

I think in this particular case Sunderland and Northern General did operate the same routes. From your linked article:

Quoteafter some friction between Northern and SCT it was agreed that the two undertakings should operate on a 50:50 basis.

Quotethere was little incentive for people living on some of the outer estates to buy tokens worth 3.3d when the cash fare was only 4d and the first bus to come along was just as likely to be a "Northern" anyway.

Peter

the full quote is thus :

QuoteIn 1951 Sunderland extended its boundaries quite considerably, and new housing estates were built beyond the old boundaries. The Northern General group of companies claimed that they should serve the new housing areas as they had been built in -Northern territory" and after some friction between Northern and SCT it was agreed that the two undertakings should operate on a 50:50 basis.

I read that it is only from said Northern housing estates that the 50/50 would apply.
Such pooling agreements were common - hence the "North Midland Transport Pool" which we still have not found out anything about!

Quote from: Figleaf on April 17, 2014, 11:23:59 PM
See discussion here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=14711.msg161434#msg161434). T was changed from Tramways in Transport but logically, you can only have Aberdare Tramways Corporation (a public enterprise in Aberdare) or Aberdare Council Tramways (a service of the city council). The index will tell you at a glance that the Corporation formula was far more popular. Only London used the Council formula.

Peter

[Link doesn't work][link repaired]

Just received the Cox book which states:

The monogram ACT stands for Aberdare Council Tramways and which was already in place on the tunic buttons.

The tokens were first issued 1917 and continued in use, even though the trams stopped running in 1935, until they were replaced by the decimal issue in 1971.

The date of the 6d introduction has not been determined but was probably 1923/4.

A series of 22.225mm (7/8th inch) tokens from Leigh is here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg162561.html#msg162561). These are 25mm (1 inch) tokens.

Peter

Morecambe and Heysham have grown together on the Lancashire coast, near Lancashire, but Morecambe has a shopping centre (the parking is almost empty on Google earth, making it look a bit sad), so it comes first.

Peter

Southend-on-sea is a serious town near Benfleet, where Norsemen and Saxons once bloodily clobbered each other for control of the mouth of the Thames. Yet, somehow, my brain keeps telling me Walmington-on-sea, where once, the Home Guard and the ARP were bad-mouthing each other for control of the vicar. :)

Peter

West Bromwich is a former miner's town. Its name will sound familiar to soccer enthusiasts. Here's how the miners got to work, in fruity colours.

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on July 16, 2014, 11:45:19 PM
Southend-on-sea is a serious town near Benfleet, where Norsemen and Saxons once bloodily clobbered each other for control of the mouth of the Thames. Yet, somehow, my brain keeps telling me Walmington-on-sea, where once, the Home Guard and the ARP were bad-mouthing each other for control of the vicar. :)

Peter

When I was a schoolboy we knew this as Southend on mud, it is on the Thames estuary, mostly mud rather than sand, you could walk a mile or so out to sea with the water not reaching to you knees, hence the reason for the longest pier in England - 1.34 miles.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/Sir_John_Betjeman_Train_On_Southend_Pier.jpg/220px-Sir_John_Betjeman_Train_On_Southend_Pier.jpg)

this pier has its own railway, see Southend Pier Railway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southend_Pier_Railway) but I am unaware if any tokens were used.

Southport seems to have had some doubts about decimalisation. It simply took the D off the pre-decimal token, but didn't add a P. The pre-decimal tokens are here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg64481.html#msg64481).

Peter

Wodan's dyke was a simple version of Hadrian's wall. The district existed from 1974 to 1996.

Peter

Here is an exceptional set of school tokens from Barrow-in-Furness. Voice mentions a colour variation of the tuppence, but otherwise, this series is complete. I like the little ink stain on the penny. :)

Peter

The Derby tramways operated 1904-1934.

The tokens in this post are from the collection of malj1. The other side is blank. The brass three-halfpence is 26mm (R5) = 50 to 120 known. Smith 240AB

Malcolm & Peter

The holes are part of the design, not a cancellation. The other side is blank. The round tuppence has nice signs of brockage. For decimal tokens, see this post (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg162837/topicseen.html#msg162837).

Peter

The aluminium three halfpence are from Malcolm's collection. The size of the denomination on the Derby aluminium halfpence is different. My two can be see together for comparison. first @ 23.9mm second @ 24.2mm

The pink plastic three-halfpenny token was issued for use during WW2. Both sides are the same. It's actually a much darker pink, but my scanner has great problems with this shade.

Malcolm & Peter

Derby Omnibus education and employee tokens.

Peter

I recently obtained the following seven tokens that should be added to the WoC UK local transportation tokens index.

Cotswold District Council, 40p, pale green, round, consimilar.
Eastleigh Borough Council, GBP 1, pale violet, round, expiry 31-08-06.
North Avon Disrict Council, 50p, orange, heptagonal, letter N stencil-cut.
Stroud District Council, 50p, orange, heptagonal, letter S stencil-cut.
West Berkshire, 25p, yellow, round, letters WB stencil cut, valid 2009-10.
West Berkshire, 25p, violet, round, letters WB stencil cut, valid 2010-11.
West Berkshire, GBP 1, pale green, round, letters WB stencil cut, valid 2011-12.

Sadly, I'm not proficient at scanning or photographing plastic tokens.

The old arms of Rotherham county borough are a complicated affair. It is not clear where the cannon are coming from. The three deer are a reference to the Arms of the Archbishops of Rotherham. The bridge represents the ancient bridge at Rotherham. It also refers to the Old Southwark Bridge, built by Rotherham iromasters, and the Bailey bridge, invented by a Rotherham man. Mercury's staff with the odd hand on top symbolises commerce. For the tokens with post-1947 arms, see here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg156086.html#msg156086).

Peter

the cannon refer to the iron works located in around Rotherham, especially that of Samuel and Aaron Walker.

A large foundry was erected at the Holmes, in which they made almost all kinds of castings, and by 1757, thanks to a contract obtained by Charles Watson-Wentworth, Marquis of Rockingham, large quantities of cannon were being produced for the American War of Independence; mills worked by water wheels, for the turning and boring cannon; forges and mills, not only at the Holmes, but at Thrybergh and Conisbrough.

(http://www.rotherhamweb.co.uk/h/images/scannon.jpg)
Walker Cannon

Source (http://www.rotherhamweb.co.uk/h/122.htm) for much more detail on this.

Note the word TRANSPORT. For the Tramways series of South Shields and the arms, see this post (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg162725.html#msg162725).

Peter

Stockton-on-Tees is a shipbuilding town. That probably explains the no-nonsense look of this token, that - following local usage - dispenses with the Tees. The C in corporation sticks out a little below the baseline. El-cheapo designer, Stockton? ;)

Peter

An unlisted BUS PASS for the N.C.B. NORTH DERBYS AREA

NV,yellow plastic 31.7mm

Two other N.C.B. types are listed for Waleswood motor bus # Sheffield 685 BD/BE and BH

Another possibility is the Chesterfield issue # 170 CA thru CD for Flint Glap See North Derbyshire Collieries (http://www.oldminer.co.uk/Mining/Collieries.htm) [almost halfway down page]

(http://www.oldminer.co.uk/Mining/Collieries_files/image167.png)
Copyright and Owner Mark Smith.

FLINT GLAP - Orange plastic, same design both sides. These tokens were used by miners in the Bolsover travelling to Glapwell Colliery on the private miners' bus service run by Mrs. E Flint of Carr Vale. Certainly in use in 1967 but withdrawn from use c.1970.  ...The Smiths cat., says this bus was run by Mrs Flint for the N.C.B.

Also shown there and mentioned:

White Plastic Glapwell Colliery Checks - These are similar to many other plastic checks I have from the North Derbyshire area. But how were they used?

I feel this could well be a bus pass too.

No doubt about the North Derbyshire bus pass. Very nice find!

No doubt either on the Flint Glap token. The explanation given is convincing. The Derbyshire Miners Association piece is pretty likely a bus token (could be a co-op restaurant token, but I don't see miners coming up just for lunch.)

I do have doubts on the Thorne and the five remaining Glapwell tokens. In their favour, the layout resembles that of the North Derbyshire token. However, there is no mention of transport or NCB or another Miners' union, but the mine is mentioned. It is quite possible that they were identity tags issued by the mine administration (hence the name of the mine) as a crude but effective way to keep track of who was in the mine. The miner would, depending on how the administration wanted the system to operate, either take them upon entry and give them back when leaving the mine or he would yield them on entry and take it back on leaving. Fire brigades had a similar system to keep track of who was in a burning building.

Peter

Most of the others in the image are mining pieces and only included as I had just uploaded the entire image from that link to show the Flint Glap token which I have been seeking for years; but the white Glapwell Colliery is one I think could well be another bus pass although it does not say so explicitly.

The similarity between the white plastic Glapwell token and the round brass Glapwell token leads me to believe that the two have the same function.

Peter

The brass "COLLIERY" pieces with a stamped number (and hole) were for uses within the colliery.... mainly for checking in and out of the working area. Each miner had pieces with a different stamped number...

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

I have shown the 1½d Fibre Sheffield Transport Department token before (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg138331.html#msg138331), but here it is again alongside two varieties of the Sheffield Corporation Tramways 1½d that are also in Fibre

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8729582/screenshots/Epa7992%20-%20Copy.jpg)

The first is a dark grey possible due to age or wear but on the second pale grey piece the halfpenny on the reverse has a distinctly different half, especially seen in the figure 1

It looks like an early (first world war?) tram token, but I can't find it. Judging from the oxidation, it is iron. What looks white on the scan is actually shiny: recent scratch. Bracteate strike, i.e. the reverse is the same, incuse and in mirror image; flan is extremely thin. About 32 mm.

Peter

See Reply #230 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg174476.html#msg174476) for a very similar 1d FARE token for a toy conductors play set.

A different '1d' in the penny denomination otherwise almost identical, including size.

Here is the complete run of Wallasey Corporation Motor Bus tokens.

Notice the various dies, such as the gap between MOTOR and BUSES, as well as the different colours; some of the blue 2d and the red 4d have been highlighted with paint, perhaps some of the drivers couldn't read these in poor light.

Shipley & District Tramways / Joseph Speight Proprietor 1d brass 25.8mm

See WoT (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Shipley_%26_District_Tramways)

Very nice - our first entry in the earlier sections.

But I expect to get a few more sorted before Christmas.

A couple of concessionaries for you - 3p
Maidenhead & Cookham

Why not write them up in the Wiki, redwine?

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on December 25, 2014, 07:08:14 PM
Why not write them up in the Wiki, redwine?

Not my thing Peter.
But if I owe anyone (particularly Andy  :-[) and if they want them they are welcome  ;D

Which reminds me, is there a UK transport token hub I can send unwanted UK transport tokens to as i don't collect them?
Likewise, perhaps there should be other hubs to enable people to send unwanted tokens on to other collectors in their spheres.
Sorry, kids are watching telly loudly!  Can't think straight.  And I've drunk a little too much in the extended lunchtime............ ::)

Quote from: redwine on December 25, 2014, 07:48:23 PM
Which reminds me, is there a UK transport token hub I can send unwanted UK transport tokens to as i don't collect them?

Probably me - although I don't actually collect them myself......

The Transport Ticket Society of the UK includes a Ticket Distributions program that has a separate token section.

http://www.transport-ticket.org.uk/

Thanks for that  ;D but I'll think I'll pass them on to Andy when I find something he wants/needs.......

Another N.C.B. bus pass added to WoT (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/National_Coal_Board) similar to that in Reply #279 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg184240.html#msg184240) but this time in pale blue.

Quote from: Kushi on December 26, 2014, 01:42:04 PM
The Transport Ticket Society of the UK includes a Ticket Distributions program that has a separate token section.

Thank you. I contacted them.

Peter

A recent addition is this token. The reverse looks just like the Glasgow Tramways 1/2d token but the obverse has G.C.L.R. about which I can find nothing. I thought that L.R. might be Light Railway but no record of such a thing in Glasgow, the only similar reference was to Gloucester Corporation Light Railways, which did exist but I cannot find any reference to tokens.

The Smiths had anticipated a further volume regarding the railway tokens, unfortunately the elder Smith died and the idea was shelved. Possibly this was held over for that book if indeed they knew of it.

I have found some information on the company [if indeed it is this] but no tokens. = Gloucester Corporation Light Railways: 7 May 1904 to 11 Jan 1933.

Under the Gloucester Corporation Light Railways Order, 1903, electric light railways have been constructed in place of the old horse tramways, and, with extensions within the city, making a total of 7 miles of route and 12 miles of single track. The Corporation have also leased the light railways constructed under the County of Gloucester (Gloucester and Brockworth) Light Railways Order, 1903 (2 miles of route and about 2½ miles of single track), which are run in connection with the city light railways.
Source (http://places.wishful-thinking.org.uk/GLS/Gloucester/Kelly1923.html)

This page is under construction. http://www.trackbed.com/companies/g/company_gclr.htm (http://www.trackbed.com/companies/g/company_gclr.htm) so a return visit is called for.

Image 1 / 2   Tram Ticket,Gloucester Corporation Light Railways, 1 1/2d, Advert: Well-Bred Bread, D Smith, Serial No 0194
Image 2 / 2   Tram Ticket,Gloucester Corporation Light Railways, 1 1/2d, Advert: Well-Bred Bread, D Smith, Serial No 0194
Source (http://www.gbticket.com/detalhe_produto.php?codproduto=1562&codcategoriaproduto=143=)

APPENDIX VII.

Extracts from a typical Order of the " tramway type " made under the Light Railways Act 1896.

GLOUCESTER CORPORATION LIGHT RAILWAYS ORDER 1903.

Order authorising the construction of Light Railways in the City of Gloucester. WHEREAS an application was in November 1899 (hereinafter referred to as " the application of 1899 ") duly made to the Light Railway Commissioners by the City of Gloucester Tramways Company Limited in pursuance of the Light Railways Act 1896 for an Order to authorise the construction of light railways including Railways (No. i) (No. IA) (No. 2) (No. 3) and (No. 4) hereinafter described AND WHEREAS by the Gloucester Tramways Order 1878 and the City of Gloucester Tramways Order 1895 the said Company were authorised to construct and maintain certain tramways AND WHEREAS the light railways by this Order authorised will be partly constructed upon the roads now occupied by the said tramways and will render necessary the removal of the same AND WHEREAS the Mayor Aldermen and Citizens of the City of Gloucester in the County of the City of Gloucester (hereinafter called " the Corporation ") have in pursuance of Section 44 of the Tramways Act 1870 and with the consent of the Board of Trade agreed to purchase the said tramways and it has also been agreed between the said Company and the Corporation that this Order shall be granted to the Corporation AND WHEREAS an application was in May 1902 (hereinafter referred to as " the application of 1902 ") duly made to the Light Railway Commissioners by the Corporation in pursuance of the Light Railways Act 1896 for an Order to authorise the Corporation to construct light railways including the light railways hereinafter described as Railways (No. i) (No. JA) (No. 2) (No. 3) (No. 4) (No. 5) and (No. 6) AND WHEREAS the Corporation for the purpose of affording a more convenient termination of the line have applied for powers to construct the extensions hereinafter described as Railways (No. 2A) and (No. 2B) and have given public notice of the same by advertisement and by deposit of plans AND WHEREAS the Order authorises the Corporation to contract for the working running over and user of certain light railways outside the area of the City and in accordance with section 3 of the said Act if has been proved to the satisfaction of the Board of Trade that such working running over or user of the said light railways by the Corporation is expedient in the interests of the said City and the Board are also of opinion that the expenditure of the Corporation is so limited by this Order as not to exceed such amount as will bear due proportion to the benefit which may be expected to accrue to the said City from the working running over or user of the said light railways NOW we the Light Railway Commissioners being satisfied after local inquiry of the expediency of granting the said application including the said extensions do in pursuance of the Light Railways Act 1896 and by virtue and in exercise of the powers thereby vested in and of every other power Preamble. enabling us in this behalf ORDER as follows: Preliminary.

Short title.

i. This Order may be cited as " The Gloucester Corporation Light Railways Order 1903 " and shall come into force on the date on which it is confirmed by the Board of Trade.

Source (http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Permanent_Way_for_Tramways_Street_Railways_1000882222/235)

Phew. I have been looking into the rump commonwealth (Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa). Problem being that in modern times, "light railway" is a term that covers a very specific mode of transportation that hadn't been invented yet when there were 1½ penny fares. I even found a Gold Coast Light Railway in Australia, but it didn't fit the denomination of the token. Now that the 1903 docs Mal found use the term light railway, I am convinced that the answer is Gloucester, UK.

The term may well be a reflection of the situation. Around 1900, there was a movement to electrify horse tram lines and take over private lines by city corporations. However, there was no provision for electric trams in the law, so each city had to be mandated by a separate act of parliament. This could easily have led to the use of different terminology in different places. In the end, light railway lost and tramway won.

Can we use your picture in "World of Tokens", the bus and tram tokens wiki?

Peter

 The act confirmed by the Board of Trade: London Gazette Aug 14 1903 page 5152

Excellent research. I can see that a visit to Gloucester is called for !
Yes, very happy to have the images used.

That could be a big help, see this page (http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqCmd=NaviTree.tcl&dsqField=RefNo&dsqItem=GBR/3/6/34#HERE)

These records are only available by a personal visit to the Gloucestershire Archives.

I have downloaded the images, see how we go.

Quote from: Figleaf on March 09, 2015, 12:06:06 AM
Phew. I have been looking into the rump commonwealth (Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa). Problem being that in modern times, "light railway" is a term that covers a very specific mode of transportation that hadn't been invented yet when there were 1½ penny fares.

I grew up in the village of Kinver, Staffordshire, to which there was, between 1901 and 1930, a rail-borne transport connection from the nearby Black Country. In common parlance this railway was universally known as the tram, but its official name was the Kinver Light Railway. Although it shared the tram tracks at its easterly end it was a private company and separate from the corporation trams in Amblecote. As far as I know the KLR did not issue tokens, but it could easily have done and they could easily have been for threehalfpence.

Today, a light railway is more likely to share train tracks than tram tracks. It may or may not need high platforms, though. An example of train tracks and low platforms is here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RijnGouweLijn). The Paris area RER (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RER) is an example of train tracks and high platforms.

Peter

One of Melbourne's [Australia] railway lines was taken from the rail network and converted to tram operation in the late 1980's. see more her (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Kilda_railway_line)e

Quote from: malj1 on March 11, 2015, 09:31:13 PM
One of Melbourne's [Australia] railway lines was taken from the rail network and converted to tram operation in the late 1980's. see more her (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Kilda_railway_line)e

Likewise Angeredsbanan in Gothenburg (Swedish Wikipedia (http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angeredsbanan); includes a link to the English page on Göteborgs Spårvägar which mentions it in passing), which was converted to tram use 1969-1972 after the railway was closed. A peculiarity is that the trams have to swap sides (https://www.google.se/maps/@57.7683423,12.0222909,125m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=sv) at the join between the conventional tram network and the converted railway. Trams drive on the right in Sweden, like other road traffic, while trains drive on the left. Angeredsbanan has central platforms, meaning that trams designed for right-hand traffic can use left-hand traffic rail lines.

I think you could pick up the tram and rotate it 90 degrees to make it operate correctly?   >:D

Quote from: malj1 on March 11, 2015, 10:37:12 PM
I think you could pick up the tram and rotate it 90 degrees to make it operate correctly?   >:D

90 degrees? :o

I've never really understood why Gbg's trams aren't double-ended like many trains are, so that the driver just has to walk to the other end of the vehicle to drive it the other way. Instead there are turning loops at termini and a few other places; otherwise, the trams can reverse but it involves quite a lot of hassle, not to mention checking that there's nothing in the rather large blind spot that something the length of a tram has.

You don't actually have to pick 'em up. More info here (http://www.genzelbahn.nl/draaischijf.html).

Peter

Yes of course I should have said 180 degrees. I have seen the train turntables.

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-BzDWyPb8g5o/VQF4jh7sVLI/AAAAAAAAKiI/PXX5M9UqrYk/w1109-h833-no/2015-02-23%2B11.07.33.jpg)

But our trams have doors on both sides.

The problem with having doors on both sides is that it reduces the seating capacity significantly.

Some of the trams still in use in Gbg date from before the switch to right-hand traffic in 1967 and were modified after construction to cope. Instead of retaining the 'old' left-side doors while adding right-side doors, the old doors were replaced with normal wall panels and windows.

That is not a problem as here they are taking a lot of seats out to increase the capacity for standing passengers, likewise with the trains. All due to a huge increase of people using the public transport system since the increased cost of petrol over the last few years.

I spent a happy day at the Gloucester Archives yesterday where they have a several documents related to the Gloucester Corporation Light Railways, but nothing that refers directly to tickets or tokens. Several documents refer to 'Fares' stating that they should not exceed 1D per mile and that 'workmen' should travel cheaper so it is likely that a 1/2 D fare did exist. So I think its status is still 'Possibly'.

Well, everything we know fits Gloucester, so the Sherlock Holmes reasoning applies: when you have discarded the impossible and the unlikely, what remains must be truth. Glad about your on-site research. It's by far the best way to knowledge. Maybe you can find more information through these people (http://www.gloshistory.org.uk/association.php)?

Peter

This will be my next enquiry. In fact the archive staff were quite interested in the project and made quite a few other suggestions too. 'Watch this space, but don't hold your breath' applies.

There is also the possibility that the ½d fare could be for a child.

A token for use by employees of the North Eastern Gas Board, whilst on duty, loaded today to the WoT site - our first piece there on the gas board page.

Smith attributes to Wakefield. ...was this the only location?

This rather special piece in orange plastic for 2½d is also shown below.

I went to the Vestry House museum in Walthamstow (near London) last week and spied a token on display. Similar to Smith number Walthamstow 815 PA but with 'W.U.D.C.' instead of 'W.B.C.'. Sorry about the image but taken through glass in a gloomy room on my mobile phone - there's a moral there somewhere!

A great find, but that's my quibble with museums, you can't have it!  ::)

Presumably uniface like the other in Smith which incidentally I notice is square.

From plasticman the following paragraph about the introduction of Celluloid tokens in Manchester...

...the Gloucestershire Chronicle dated September 3rd 1904 so this exactly dates the first celluloid Manchester tokens.

I have enhanced the cutting somewhat but its still a little indistinct.

David Voice lists under Toy Tram/bus token a ½d FARE token for a toy conductors play set. 25.5mm.

Made from a much lighter gauge tin [which should correctly be called tinned iron] than the penny.

See Reply #230 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg174476.html#msg174476) and Reply #285 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg187957.html#msg187957) for the penny.

WoT (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/GLA.Z01f_Varieties) shows 7 tokens of the following general type:

obv: city arms, GLASGOW CORPORATION above, TRAMWAYS below
rev: 2 / STAGE / TOKEN

I do not have variant vii, but it is sufficiently different to be recognised without quantification. Nevertheless, I hope to add it to the tables below one day. All other variants are in my collection.

There is as yet no attempt in WoT to quantify how the six are different, so I set out to find descriptions that collectors can use, even if they have only one token. I identified the six with the subtype suffix used in WoT, i.e. all are numbered GLA.Z01f, but the variations are further numbered with small Roman numerals i, ii, iii, iv, v and vi.

Variant i
(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/w/images/6/6b/GLA.Z01f.jpg)
Variant ii
(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/w/images/9/90/GLA.Z01fii.jpg)
Variant iii
(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/w/images/4/43/GLA.Z01fiii.jpg)
Variant iv
(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/w/images/0/00/GLA.Z01fiv.jpg)
Variant v
(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/w/images/5/5e/GLA.Z01fv.jpg)
Variant vi
(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/w/images/e/e6/GLA.Z01fvi.jpg)

At a glance, the size of the arms differs from one token to another. To quantify the size, I measured five points:

• The distance between the second G in GLASGOW and the plumes left of the helmet on top of the arms.
• The distance between the CO in CORPORATION and the plumes on top of the helmet.
• The distance between second R in CORPORATION and the plumes right of the helmet.
• The distance between the N in CORPORATION and the rightmost point of the tail of the right fish
• The distance between the first G in GLASGOW and the leftmost point of the tail of the left fish

This turned out impossible, until I rendered the results as "touching or very close"(0), "a bit of a gap" (1) and "quite a gap" (2). While this re-introduces a non-quantified element, I hope collectors would find these distinctions good enough to work with. The results were as follows:

Variant	G	CO	R	N	G	obv. type
i	1	0	1	0	0	A
ii	1	0	1	0	0	A
iii	2	1	2	1	1	B
iv	1	0	1	0	0	A
v	1	0	1	0	0	A
vi	1	0	1	0	0	A

Looking at the last column, you may say in non-quantified terms that I found two arms sizes: large (A) and small (B). However, it should be noted that the plumes left and right of the helmet may be curved (i, ii and vi) or straight (iv and v), so obverse types are Aa (curved), Ab (straight) and B

Turning my attention to the reverse, I set out to measure the height and width of each of the three lines. It turned out that all letters (but not the figures) were of the same height: 2.5 mm*. I measured text lengths from the points furthest away from each other, e.g. using the leftmost point of the horizontal bar of the T in TOKEN. Here's what I found:

Variant	2	STAGE	TOKEN
i	3 x 2.5	17	16
ii	3 x 2.5	16	15.5
iii	2 x 3	12	12
iv	2.5 x 3	14	13.5
v	2.5 x 3	14	14
vi	2 x 3	15	14

In other words, all variants turned out to have different reverses. Yet, there is some regularity. There are two tokens each with three sizes of figures: 2 x 3, 2.5 x 3 and 3 x 2.5. For two of these pairs, there is a variant where the two lines underneath are the same length and a variant where the first line is longer than the second. However, this may well be a coincidence, rather than an indication.

To sum it up, I found six different mould pairs on six different tokens: Aai, Aaii, Abiv, Biii, Abv and Aavi. My sample is much too small to draw any conclusions, but I hope that it may serve to incite others to take similar measures on tokens they own, in order to arrive at a trustworthy typology.

Peter

* I use only whole and half millimeters in this exercise.

It would be useful to have link to the other page in WoT for reference.

See  here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Glasgow_Corporation_Tramways) for the previous page showing all the Glasgow Tramway tokens which also includes further types of the 2 STAGE tokens.

I shall have a look at mine again tomorrow as it is past my bedtime!

I did not get very far so first I shall upload my images direct from my folder!

See below to compare...

I think we could use the different style of 2 to sort some and then follow by the position of the STAGE over TOKEN? = three squat 2 and two taller 2.  [I see you have three taller 2]

The thick plastic token and the fibre tokens speak for themselves. For the short-sighted conductors or to read at night time!

I shall dig the tokens out again to measure in the morning.

Here again are the arms from your Reply #58 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg126702.html#msg126702)  Re: UK local transportation tokens

   (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14711.0;attach=38711;image)

The feathers and armour vary on the tokens in the shape and distance from the shield below which might help distinguish these dies.

I would like to have the measurements of the 2 and the maximum length of TOKEN and STAGE of your Epa 6160, 6161, 6162, 6163 and 6158 to complement the table. Indeed, the rest is obvious. Following in Ole's (Globetrotter's) footsteps, I think it is important to quantify differences, so that collectors can identify their variety without having other varieties.

Yes, those arms a still a problem. The differences are pretty subtle and the eye tends to see more than there is in reality. The small arms are obvious and so are the horizontal helmet plumes, but I could not quantify anything else. I feel it is just as important to reject varieties that are not different as to list varieties exhaustively.

Peter

Here are the measurements of my tokens.

Epa 6158 21.5mm 2 = 3.5h X 2.5w  STAGE 14mm    TOKEN 14.5mm
Epa 6160 21.8mm 2 = 2.5h X 3w     STAGE 14mm    TOKEN 14.5mm
Epa 6161 21.6mm 2 = 3h X 2w        STAGE 16mm    TOKEN 14.5mm
Epa 6162 21.4mm 2 = 2.5h X 2.5w  STAGE 16mm    TOKEN 14.5mm
Epa 6163 21.6mm 2 = 2.5h X 2.5w  STAGE 16mm    TOKEN 15.5mm

My Epa 8835 is larger at 22.5mm X 3.7mm thick.

I have a second example of the Epa 6163 with a square flat edge rather than the usual rounded edge. The fish tail is slightly different - but the token has a had a rough ride.

Edited sizes.

Thank you, Malcolm. Unfortunately, none of yours is like any of mine, so we now have 11 variants. No progress.

Peter

I amended those measurements above [I had 2 i/o 1]

Have added a new variety today, namely:

Epa 9780 21.9mm 2 = 3h X 2w        STAGE 15.5mm    TOKEN 15mm

This has a very nice CoA on the obverse and distinctly shows the shepherds crook at the left side of bishop this time.

Note. I am hoping to receive a few more examples in the next few days.

Two more examples: duplicates of Epa 6160 and Epa 6161

the first is slightly larger at 22.2mm but in much better condition which could account for the variation; great CoA showing the fish scales distinctly.

The second bright red piece is also in excellent condition and an exact duplicate.

Another terracotta red fibre token this one measures 23mm and has a variation with TRAMWAYS directly below the ribbon.

The former Epa6159 measures 23.6mm and has TRAMWAYS starting under the fish-tail at left. This earlier piece from Reply #2 is shown again below to enable comparison.

These compare favourably with the two varieties shown in Smith. 420AU this piece and 420AV for the Epa9854a.

Thank you Malcolm. Getting more and more tokens in this thread should have helped, but instead, we now have more variants than ever, including of types I didn't look at in the beginning. Getting even more specimen may help or may not bring us ant nearer. We need simplification.

For the side with the arms, would it be sufficient to concentrate on the helmet plumes and the one variant with a distinctive small shield? Also, the ones in what you call terra-cotta should get their own exercise or it will drive us bonkers.

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on August 22, 2015, 08:16:58 AM
Also, the ones in what you call terra-cotta should get their own exercise or it will drive us bonkers.
Peter

I have added this fibre one [Epa9854a] to the WoT page as GLA.Z01e the second variety; this completes that part as there are just the two listed varieties of the fibre 2 stage.

Thank you, Malcolm. That puts that issue to rest.

Peter

An unlisted Derby corporation omnibuses 1½d prepaid. Brass 23.1mm

Unlike all the other pieces shown here this one does not have an inner circle near the rim.

The normal 1½d at 23.9mm is shown below.

Or... has it been cut down from the larger token? brass 26mm

...or struck on a small blank?   ???

NEWPORT CORPORATION TRANSPORT EMPLOYEES TRAVEL PERMIT REV. 514 stamped out celluloid sheet 50mm.

You can go anywhere you like but not on service 30  :o

That makes it pre-1986. However, I have not been able to establish when Newport Corporation Tramways became Newport Corporation Transport. I suspect it was somewhere in the thirties.

Peter

Before 1973 issue when 550 BA N.C.T. was Newport CITY Transport.

Five types of the EMPLOYEES TRAVEL PERMIT are listed in Smith; my one above is 550 PG

Newport Corporation Tramways
From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newport_Corporation_Tramways)
Open    9 April 1903
Close    5 September 1937

The red version is nice, 550PI, I have another red one numbered 578. Just to add another, 550PD which appeared to replace the brass version.

The 1937 date is when the Tramway network was closed. The name change may have been earlier.

Peter

I swear every Glasgow 2 STAGE token I see is different.

However this one is most decidedly so.

It looks to me as though the impression is too shallow, which suggests too cold when moulding or not enough pressure. Has anyone published a list of variants on this common token I wonder? Quite apart from massive colour variations, I have just looked at 8 in my collection. The foot of the '2' varies, also the position of the top of the arms with the first 'o' in 'corporation'. I am sure that there are other variants too.

I should have mentioned both side of that one are incuse but only partly so, rather like the letters are in outline. Yes if too cold the letters wouldn't have been filled I imagine.

Yes we have made an attempt at a list of variants previously but Peter's and my own ideas differed a little.

See First attempt at a typology of Glasgow 2 stage tokens  (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,32548.msg205647.html#msg205647)

Also here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg131737.html#msg131737)

Halifax Corporation Tramways Lavatory No.240 uniface Brass 31.2mm

An unlisted Derby Corporation Omnibuses 1½d in copper. 23.2mm

See Reply #325 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14711.msg218077.html#msg218077) for some brass examples.

I am not convinced that is not just heavy toning due to the piece having been in a certain type of ground....

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Definitely copper as I scraped the edge slightly to reveal the pink colour.

Posted it on Facebook Transportation Tokens Collectors Group too where it was confirmed by Alan Judd who also has one.

Very interesting, Malcolm, but also mysterious. Bus drivers would be confused by the different colour of the token (a variety of World of Tokens DCO.0015a, it would seem) yet your token seems to have circulated. So was this a production error or a well-considered decision? As there seem very few around and this is the only denomination known in bronze an error seems more likely.

It seems too well made and of too low a value to be a contemporary counterfeit and a modern counterfeiter would have used the correct metal and would likely have picked an older type with an attractive picture. So why was it accepted? Was it maybe already sold in some quantity before the error was discovered and declared valid to simplify things? As it is less than 100 years old, there may be a paper trail or a local museum that actually answers its email...

In any case, it would be good to have it in WoT. Could Alan Judd be persuaded to contribute his knowledge to WoT?

Peter

A Paisley District Tramways Co. hexagonal aluminium ½d uploaded to WoT today.

A magnificent token, well preserved with impressive detail! A worthy addition to our catalogue of these tokens. Paisley is close enough to Glasgow to imagine the need for a tramway, even when the local textile industry, imitating Mughal and Persian motives, was flourishing.

Peter

Paisley was very near the Royal ordnance factory at Georgetown which operated filling shells in WW1, employing 10,000 people, so quite possibly the tramway would have been of great benefit.

It closed in 1919 but another was opened at Bishopton at the commencement of WW2. My uncle was transferred there in 1940 but died in the Flu epidemic of 1941.

Accrington Corporation Steam Tramways Co. 3d zinc. 30.6mm

With a little help from World of Tokens (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Accrington), this one can be dated 1885 - 1907. Voice says it also exists in brass.

Peter

The Smiths only list it in brass

There was an addenda to the Smith's book with a few corrections. This was one of them.

That's good to know.

The 2004 AVA Supplement to the Smiths 1990 catalogue lists a white metal example (copper-nickel). There is nothing from Accrington in the 2013 AVA Supplement.

No zinc piece has been reported to the best of my knowledge.

If it just says "white metal", that may be zinc.

Peter

It is in some kind of white metal  ??? ...and this description covers a multitude of metals but it doesn't necessarily mean cupro-nickel (which it certainly isn't) just that it is not brass or copper.

Lothian Regional Transport Tokens prob between 1985- 2000 when they had the LRT logo

Wow, scroggs. Not in WoT (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Lothian_Regional_Transport). Can we use your pics? What is the size of the awesome foursome? Or do you want to add them yourself?

Mind that there is a period where LRT stood for Lothian Regional Transport (1975-1985) and a period where it meant Lothian Region Transport (1986-2000). Do you have background information that shows what the logo means? The ones we do have are all Regional, rather than Region and one of those has the same logo.

Peter

These are all 22mm I think.

I have the 25p  8) 22.6mm

please use the photos of the LRT tokens for WoT. I dont know how to upload them.
they are all 22.6mm dia .

as for the logo dating i found this

The Transport Act 1985 deregulated bus services in Great Britain and required that municipal bus operations be run as commercial companies rather than as public service departments. Therefore, on 26 October 1986 the operation became Lothian Region Transport plc, better known by its initials 'LRT', a company wholly owned by Lothian Regional Council.

On 1 April 1996 Lothian Regional Council was abolished. Although the then Conservative government had sought to have the company privatised, this was resisted by local politicians and ownership the company passed to the new City of Edinburgh Council and the three neighbouring councils. The LRT identity remained until January 2000, when the company was renamed Lothian Buses plc, the LRT logo changing to 'Lothian'.
taken from http://uktransport.wikia.com/wiki/History_of_Lothian_Buses

I also have this token from Aberdeen which isnt in WoT either

Quote from: scroggs on September 17, 2016, 03:27:10 PM
as for the logo dating i found this

5p issued October 1991, 10p May 1990 and 50p was first issued 1st June 1995...

There is an addenda to the Smiths catalogue, which I now have - but have not yet added the tokens to WOC.  I made a start this morning!
http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Special:RecentChanges (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Special:RecentChanges)

Here is a token for the blind from my Christmas loot. It is from the Bristol Tramways and Carriage Company. The odd thing about it is the cut corner. Voice illustrates this type noting that the type is (...) rectangular with varying numbers of corners removed. However, in his catalogue list, he notes that the 2 1/2 penny has no missing corners, the 2 pence misses one corner, the 1 1/2 penny two corners and the penny three corners, so the missing corners are prolly meant as a tactile identification aid for the blind.

Peter

Mine has the same corner clipped. see below...

also the fibre token.

Yes to serve as an aid for the blind. (I thought I had shown these previously?)

Voice is not to be relied on and should be used with the caution. Smith agrees with the tokens shown here and notes the 2½d is rare as only 250 made.

Wallsend 812AB
THE TYNESIDE TRAMWAYS & TRAMROADS COMPANY / 1d :)
Antonio

Nice one, Antonio. Have you visited World of Tokens (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/UK_Transport_tokens) (WoT) yet? You'll like the Swedish and UK transport token sections. You're free to start a section yourself or to contribute to existing sections. Let us know if you need help.

Peter

Thanks Peter, I am very interested in the Swedish transport tokens but I cannot find the link at the WoT. Antonio

I found the link!  ;D ..... I have yet to discover the whole site.

Have fun! there is a lot to discover there and we are still building and hoping for more contributions.

Some while ago I found what might have been an unlisted token with "WYPTE Leeds District" and "Sov. St."
We knew Sovereign Street was the site of a bus depot, but it's use remained uncertain.  This last week I acquired a few more (pictured below) - one of which still has a metal ring attached.  I now think the purpose of these items to be key rings, to tell whoever had the keys what they were for,  Drivers of buses would likely have had keys for toilets or break areas, possibly even late turn keys to let them in the gates for the depot at the end of their shift - perhaps we'll never know.  It is unlikely though that these are tokens....

Excellent stuff, andyg. No tokens, indeed, but that was doubtful to begin with in view of the holes. Still, part of the bus/plastic love affair and arguably part of the story of the tokens.

I am wondering if the plastics may not have been chipped, in other words, they WERE the keys: you'd hold them against the lock and buzzz - open sesame. It would be a handy safety measure in the sense that the system could be made aware which key-hangers no longer had right of access, e.g. in case of loss, retirement or job change. It would also explain the address on them.

Peter

They are clearly made out of plastic and that suggests thousands (or hundreds at least) because you wouldn't create a mould for a handful of copies. Does this fit in with your thoughts I wonder?

They could also have been for attaching to a locker key.

I notice one is marked Leeds City Transport which suggest an earlier set of key tags than the others bearing WYPTE.

University of Hull.pdf

A STUDY IN THE DECLINE OF THE BRITISH STREET TRAMWAY INDUSTRY IN THE TWENTIETH CENTURY WITH SPECIAL REFERENCE TO SOUTH YORKSHIRE (https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/University%20of%20Hull.pdf?token=AWwwrV0HEbXSaaNzarCZNx79CVe06bAJOy9neAq632pKB0OSXlPdq2MEUROCoj7Ej8A0t9WvJMOVGAHSObwqQZwWyqfyJS9b2STpD4aEQldkzl9vnVwssJ-YhrKI1TGTdY3me727YMBOrt-9lYdD8j0NF3ez65NUu4CAcHm20C6bodZTDvfmcWcQ_H-gX0ZpGCJsSH5WkjOiIB_xvG3jQ7uQ)

The first two are NCT Newport Corporation Tramways tokens , slight variants .
The third i presume is a Newport Transport token as it is very similar , anyone know for sure?

Are you calling the first token a variant because the distance between the N and the logo is different? It looks like the letters are slightly lighter and the dots smaller, but that could be due to wear or lighting.

As for the NT token, we found (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Newport) that NCT became NT in 1986. The logo is the same and the denomination side is practically the same, so even though I haven't see this token before, I have no trouble accepting it as a post 1986 bus token of Newport.

Peter

The ONE JOURNEY TOKEN is noticeably differently spaced on the middle token in scroggs' post. The first and third are the same as each other, though with different reverses.

I agree it's certainly a different die and one i must check when I return home.

Another option.

Nice and certainly very different!

Here are a few more of the Bristol tokens for the blind.
2d with lower right corner clipped
2d with upper right corner clipped
2 1/2d plastic

I thought it odd that a different corner was off but then realised that one corner off means 2d, so not really any problem which one.

And a round 3d

Staffordshire Potteries Street Railway Limited.

The genuine small piece, brass 24X19mm. Note it has an inner circle both sides which is not so apparent on the fantasies. See here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,24162.msg159886.html#msg159886)

...and yes a compressed image is now on World of Tokens

Great catch indeed, Malcolm. Congratulations! Good to see the genuine token and the fake side by side. They are clearly very different.

Peter

I should have added weights.

The genuine token 730 PB is 2.7g

The fantasy 730 YA is heavier at 3.9g

Another batch of Glasgow 2 stage tokens acquired in a job lot this week.

Several variations in the arms.

Quote from: malj1 on December 28, 2012, 12:41:23 PM
I feel that one you list is plastic, the size implies plastic too.

I have four of these 2 Stage tokens in plastic in varying shades of red, 21.5mm., along with one larger fibre token, 23.7mm that is quite different, the reverse having much larger font.

Edit; Another Glasgow 2 stage added today. rev. legend nicely spaced - see right-hand token the other is left-hand in Epa3054; obv see space between upper and lower legend.

They must have found a way to make them all different. ;) I hope you will find mules. They would link different varieties in time, so that at some time, someone would be able to make sense of the mess.

Peter

Andrew Menzies City Omnibus token from Glasgow, Scotland. Copper. 28mm x 18mm. It would seem to be Smith 420 G except for the counterstamp. The only counterstamped token in either Smith or Breingan, is one with a "P" stamped over the 2d to denote a penny fare. Any ideas about this counterstamp?

I'd say there are only two possibilities, in view of how the counterstamp was carefully applied, which rules out a rate change:

• someone trying out his new punch
• some kind of advertisement or propaganda

Peter

I think the Smiths were incorrect about the P as P wasn't used to denote penny until the 1970s decimalisation. It would have been a 1 stamp otherwise.

Perhaps it means Partick?

Your counterstamp looks like a bomb or an apple ???

I noted how you (Art) just added another counterstamp here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Busby,_William_%26_Daniel).

As for the p counterstamp, it occurred to me that an upside down p is a d.

Peter

The "C" counterstamp on the Busby Liverpool token is listed in the Smith catalog. It is not one I have added or seen. I did add the picture of the uncounterstamped Busby token.



Art

Yes Malcolm, it could be an apple. Maybe to try to get the horses to go faster.

Art

Henderson's Govan Omnibus Inside token from Glasgow, Scotland. 25mm. Lead. Not listed in Breingan or Smith. Probably from the 1850/60's.

Came across some fun illustrations here (http://www.retoolarchitecture.com/uploads/6/7/8/7/67878235/gfp_15_webresolution.pdf) (on page 40), but the history starts only in 1861 and there is no mention of Henderson. Disregarding the sales announcements of this token, I did find several mentions of a James Henderson, architect in the 1920s. A more significant find was "Henderson Travel", which apparently had a fleet and service routes in Lanarkshire and Monklands until 2014, according to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGill%27s_Bus_Services). See also this document (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/292468/np-2029-17-march-2014.pdf) with 187 mentions of Henderson travel with address 4, Whistleberry Park, Hamilton ML3 0ED, an industrialised area, some hits connected with Monklands Hospital.

The token looks more modern than 1850/60's. The decorations do not look modern, though. The word omnibus does not apply only to horse-drawn multi-passenger vehicles, but also to the first bus lines replacing electric trams, much later. However, INSIDE suggests that there were outside seats (an important distinction in the Scottish climate) also.

I believe Breingan is still around, but can he be contacted?

Peter

From a post in the Facebook Transportation Tokens Collectors group by Yosef Sa'ar:
Yosef Sa'ar
The 1861 Scottish Post Office Directory lists, "Henderson Andrew, house factor and property agent,
Govan Omnibus Office, 4 St. Enoch square, and
Victoria st, Govan"

This would seem to place it in the 1860's


Art

Quote from: Figleaf on October 04, 2020, 08:32:35 AM
However, INSIDE suggests that there were outside seats (an important distinction in the Scottish climate) also.

I found the INSIDE interesting too. Apparently, they had outdoor seating that would have been cheaper. It would be fun to find an image of an outdoor token, assuming they exist.

Bruce

From the World of Tokens:
John Greenwood of Manchester Outside token.
On the horsedrawn omnibus, passengers also rode on the roof.



Art

here is a London omnibus picture showing inside and outside use.

That's cruel making the "outsiders" sit next to a cocoa advertisement...in the winter. ;D

Bruce

Old fogey's sitting inside behind an ad for Eric Clapton don't have it easy either. ;D

Peter

London Tramways Department 2d token. Celluloid. 22mm. The color would seem to be red-brown. Smith catalog does not list a red-brown token. It does list a dark purple token, but I do not think this is dark purple. There is a centerholed token pictured on World of Tokens under the dark purple space, but it seems to be about the same color as this token.

Edinburgh Street Tramways 3d token. Brass. 25mm. Not listed in either Smith or Breingan. This token has been dug, so it is rather scruffy. Any thoughts on how to clean it would be appreciated.

Colours are rather trickey as due to environmental influences (sunlight!) the colour can change easily. Also during production small changes in composition may result in differences in colour. See for example this auction lot (https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/lockdales/catalogue-id-lo10040/lot-3e586349-edb0-45a2-b21d-a457004c16bc).

Its also what is seen in the eye of the beholder, I would agree with that description of dark purple. The colour has probably changed over the last 100 years anyway.

If this piece was covered in mud, just let it sit in water with some liquid soap. If stuff starts falling off, use a wooden toothpick to hasten the process.

However, I suspect the soil it was buried in was as toxic as saying Brexit has bad consequences ;D Chemicals have discoloured the token and caused the pitting. One possibility is that the ground was in an area where much coal was burnt (including the port area), which will produce lots of acids. My advice would be to leave it as it is.

Street Tramways is a strange combination, since, for lack of a better word, the expression street railway was used in official documents like permits to build and exploit one. In due time, street railway was succeeded by tramway. Anyway, there is more information on the company here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Street_Tramways).

The denomination threepence is fun because it is the tariff for a hansom cab (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansom_cab) ride until around 1835. You don't compete with a more luxury ride by charging the same price, so this token offered a 25% discount over a cab.

This would be a great addition to WoT...

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on November 20, 2020, 04:31:53 PM
My advice would be to leave it as it is.


Peter

I agree with Peter. Nothing more than a soak just to see if any loose residue comes off. Anything more abrasive might destroy any remaining detail..

Bruce

Thanks for the replies. I did do some cleaning on it. Soap and water and then some lemon juice. It did clean up a bit. I will try to add it to WoT.  Here is a picture after cleaning.

Art

It's already on WoT, but it's so magnificent I can't resist presenting it here also.

At 31.8 mm, it is larger than a contemporary British penny (30.8 mm), but it is thinner, resulting in a weight of 7.0 gram, while the pennies came in at 9.45 gram. The design is totally different making it look like a penny and yet feel different.

The Yorkshire Woollen District Electric Tramways was part of British Electric Tramways (BET), an institution, once the largest operator of tramways on the British Isles, now receding in history.

I am not sure that WOLLEN is a spelling error, though it may be. There are close connections between Dutch and Lowland dialects. Since wollen is the correct spelling in Dutch, it may have been correct in a Yorkshire dialect also.

Peter

Simmons Gallery are selling the Breingan collection of Scottish transport tokens and passes here,
https://simmonsgallery.co.uk/category/auction/

Breingan also authored a small book on Scottish transport tokens, so I assume these are the pieces illustrated.

I have asked Simmons Gallery if we can use some of their images.

I received an OK to use the images, as long as we place appropriate credit for the images.
There are 9 transport tokens we didn't have images of which I will upload tomorrow.

Very fast work; well done! I was planning to download all of them, and sort them out later, but that would have meant sorting out over 500 lots. I am relieved for you, but I'll admit to hoping there would be more. Still, it will be a great addition of very scarce tokens in top condition. Let me know if I can help editing or placing the pictures!

Peter

And they are on-site already. Thank you, andyg! Just go to WoT and do a search for Simmons (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/w/index.php?search=Simmons&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go) to see them all. Don't forget that in WoT you can click on catalogue pictures at the largest available size. Compare that with making a list  of pictures with the same photo credit in a paper book.

While you are there, three WoC members are busily constructing a section on Swedish amusement tokens. Maybe it will inspire you.

Peter

I'm not sure what the purpose of these are. They're obviously a Leeds issue because of the city coat of arms. Could someone identify then for me. Many thanks.

Bruce

I cannot find any evidence, but my hunch for this is that it would have gone with a set of keys for something.

That makes sense. Keys for a vehicle or something else attached to the High Way Department or what ever the city calls its maintenance group. Here's another clearer example witha different serial number.

Bruce

I've come across an unlisted UK transport token:-

West Oxfordshire District Council £1 dark green, diameter 26mm, weight 0.95 gram.

Welcome to WoC, agoodall. Do you have a picture of your token to share?

Bruce

I do but I got an error message when I attached them, apparently the size limit is 128k.

Photos of the WODC £1 token

I haven't got the hang of this yet! I'll try again with the photos...

Good stuff, agoodall. Promising also if you think you haven't got the hang of it and yet you can produce fine pictures. The early West Oxfordshire tokens look like they were used soon after decimalisation, while yours clearly came in much later and after a severe bout of inflation.

The wording and layout are virtually the same on the older token (only the word "token" is added and DISTRICT COUNCIL is now horizontal, rather than following the rim), but the deeper relief, larger font and broader rim give a sturdier impression. The denomination is a clear giveaway that your token was used later, rather than being part of the earlier series. Also, your token is not marked by use in any way.

Peter

I haven't resized or edited photos since before Windows 10 and of course it's been 'improved', so I didn't know what I was doing. I'm not very patient with computers!

The token came from a sealed bag, so it is uncirculated. I have similar bags from the same council containing 2002 and 2003 dated £1 National Transport tokens, which sort of helps pin down a date range. The general appearance is reminiscent of the similarly sized tokens from Basingstoke & Deane, Eastleigh or West Berkshire. It begs the question, were there other issues or was this a one off and, if so, were they on a break from National Transport tokens or was this a change from paper tokens?

I always imagined this sort of information existed "somewhere" but the more I get into tokens, the more I realise how wrong I was! I'm collecting municipal pre-decimal and decimal transport tokens but I'm most interested in the decimal issues. I was working towards completing the decimals as catalogued on World of Tokens, it hadn't occurred to me that there might be even more out there!

Not sure when these were valid from, but they ceased to be valid on 31/03/2012
https://www.witney.net/viewblog.asp?id=977 (https://www.witney.net/viewblog.asp?id=977)

(the government changed the funding for concessionary travel at this point, moving the money to fund the schemes from districts to county councils)

I am sure there are more out there. We are holding a few in portfolio trying to get the permissions worked out and the contributor (now in hospital) back on his feet with sufficient energy to post them. Give it a bit of time.

The point is more and more whether the ones we are "discovering" (in a Chris Columbian sense) were actually used. The rise of the National Transport token series is one question mark. It is not clear which tokens they pushed out when. Privatisation is another factor and so is the use of paper and electronic cards. It is quite possible that new tokens had already been produced when the situation changed radically and they were suddenly no longer needed.

Good to know WoT is helpful to you. If you have any varieties or types you can add, please do so. If you need help, please let us know.

Peter

Thanks andyg - it's still not clear whether they were referring to tokens in the name of the council or NTT issues.

Peter - I'm intrigued - I hope he makes a speedy recovery (we are usually "he"s, aren't we)! I hadn't considered the idea that tokens might have been produced but never used. I doubt if it will ever be possible to catalogue the paper tokens - most councils seem to have issued them and almost all the examples I have were issued between 1970 and 1974 (probably due to a very dedicated collector or dealer at the time). As for the electronic cards that replaced some token issues, they're essentially uncollectible. I've tried but have only been able to find a few examples. They are veering way off topic, so a few examples will suffice for me!

Quote from: agoodall on April 05, 2021, 09:27:02 PM
Thanks andyg - it's still not clear whether they were referring to tokens in the name of the council or NTT issues.

Peter - I'm intrigued - I hope he makes a speedy recovery (we are usually "he"s, aren't we)! I hadn't considered the idea that tokens might have been produced but never used. I doubt if it will ever be possible to catalogue the paper tokens - most councils seem to have issued them and almost all the examples I have were issued between 1970 and 1974 (probably due to a very dedicated collector or dealer at the time). As for the electronic cards that replaced some token issues, they're essentially uncollectible. I've tried but have only been able to find a few examples. They are veering way off topic, so a few examples will suffice for me!

With possibly two exceptions - the Sunderland issue in copper-nickel (souvenir) and I think a bronze 1p token from Plymouth (trial or test run) I'm pretty confident that all the tokens listed on WoT were used.

If you follow the acts of parliament then that goes some way to explain the issuance of the tokens,  it was only in the late 60's (?) that councils gained some responsibility to provide a concessionary fares scheme, this was delegated to the districts.  The next big change was LA reorganisation in 1974, so rural and urban district councils disappeared....

Concessionary schemes continued, but the rules were vary varied between local authorities - some, ie. Derbyshire had county schemes whilst others ie. Warwickshire were district based and had different passes to their neighbours.  Bridgnorth district (Shropshire) had for many years at least three different passes available.  In Cannock Chase district you could choose to have your pass in tokens instead of a pass, the tokens could then be used on Taxis as well as local bus.   Some local authorities issued National Transport Tokens instead of local tokens.  These little anomalies were partially cleared up when funding went from districts to counties in 2012, but even now some counties allow travel 24/7 on the passes whilst others only between 09.30 and 23.00.

National Transport tokens are still valid, I presume some counties still issue them....

This is one of three tokens generally assumed to be the earliest UK transport tokens. All three have a similar mail coach obverse. The second is the same as the one shown here, except that the JF cypher is replaced by the date 1797 (two dies). The third has a reverse showing the cypher AFH in a palm branch wreath. This variant is shown on WoT (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/History_of_UK_transport_tokens). Dalton & Hamer says the initials are probably those of Anthony Francis Haldimand, merchant, at 51, St Mary Axe, London.

The three are presumable advertising tokens, where Haldimand and the unknown JF used similar obverse dies, but the objective to celebrate Mr. Palmer's mail coaches "for trade expedition and property projection" may be linked to what is now known as business travel and highway robbery.

Peter

I have this sealed bag of National Transportation tokens. It contains 30 tokens with value of GBP 1 and 36 with a value of GBP 0.50. Hard to see what is inside. I was surprised to see a 2003 GBP 1 token with the Utrecht (NL) mintmarks on it!

Yes - there are two different £1 tokens, one with the Utrecht privy marks and one without - see below.

I have the one with no marks dated 2002 and 2003, and with Utrecht marks 2005. I see from the image above that the Utrecht one also exists for 2003; I don't know if either exists for other dates.

more here...
http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/National_Transport_Token (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/National_Transport_Token)

a sheesh... maybe. ;D

 ;D Touché!

I got a bit more information about the West Oxfordshire District Council £1 tokens from the person I got them from. He said he got them sometime between 2000 and 2005 and they were for use on buses and some taxi services. The reason he still had an unopened bag was because he had a car at the time and rarely needed to use public transport. Not that helpful pinning down the exact date of issue or the sequence (were the plastic tokens made before or after the National Transport tokens from the same council?). He said the tokens were replaced by paper bus passes.

As so often, witnesses are more helpful than reliable. The West Oxford District Council tokens were valid until end 2010 as taxi tokens (source (https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/8711220.end-line-free-taxi-tokens/)) and until March 2012 as bus tokens (source (https://www.witney.net/viewblog.asp?id=977))

Peter

I've come across another UK transport token not previously mentioned as far as I can see.

Portsmouth City Council £1 orange, expiry date 31/03/2012

This is a year earlier than the blue-green £1 listed in World of Tokens.

...and the obverse!

Can I use your pics in WoT?

Peter

Yes, no problem!

Andrew

Here is another trade token not used as a ticket but referring to paid transport. The issuer was William Waterhouse (the W.W. at six o'clock below the swan), owner of the post house "The swan with two necks" on Lad Lane in London. The word neck is a corruption of nick, as swans with two nicks in the beak were royal property. Swans were highly appreciated food. Other swan-owners made different markings.

As a post house, the swan with two necks had two businesses: selling food and lodging, like any inn, and selling mail coach tickets, in its case on the line from London to Weymouth. Withers (1999) quotes a contemporary ad giving the price of travel from Exeter to the swan with two necks as 4 guineas inside and 2 guineas on the outside of the coach - tellingly, the reverse shows only an inside passenger. Outside passengers would sit on the roof. Luggage would be extra. The token being a halfpence, it is clear that it would not have been used like a ticket, but rather for the food and drink selling side of the enterprise.

The business must have been rewarding. The token is detailed and well made. The engraver is said to be Thomas Halliday (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Halliday_(engraver)), a top of the market artisan.

Peter

Bradford City Tramways 1d token. Brass. 31mm x 19mm. Listed in Smith as UKE 115 C. Bradford City Tramways began operation in 1882.

Neat token! WoT BRD.003

The tongueless boar's head refers to the legend of the boar of Cliffe Wood (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-47497332). Above the head, I initially saw a running duck, but I have come to see it as a leafed branch. Not sure what's written below the boar. Can you read it?

Peter

I think the second word is BRADFORD. I suspect it's a maker's mark and the first word is a surname or company name that I can't guess from the few letters I can make out. The last three letters of the first word look like -INI though. Were/are there any die sinkers etc. with Italian names in Bradford?

Fattorini.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

I've come across another decimal transport tokens that isn't listed in WoT:

It is a West Berkshire £1, expiry date 30/06/2008.

Diameter: 26mm
Weight: 0.95 gram

Andrew

Listed now.

:rock:

Peter

Bradford City Transport. 21mm. Blue plastic.
Not listed in the Smith catalog.

Vale of White Horse District Council token from Abingdon, England. 32mm. Plastic. The Smith catalog lists the colors as pale blue and pale violet. This token appears to be a pale green.

Anybody can copy an earlier catalogue. It takes a weathered expert to improve on it. Thank you, Art!

Peter

I've never tried it, but with these injection moulded types I always wondered if it got left in the sun you would end up with a different colour :)

Ask plasticman by PM. My guess is that if a brightly coloured token is left in clothes that are washed, the colour will be dulled towards light grey.

However, in this case, how would pale blue turn into pale green? If it had been washed or sun-bathed, wouldn't it have became even paler blue?

Peter

One Abingdon/Oxfordshire piece I have is:-

"OXFORDSHIRE" / "5p" // "CONCESSIONARY" / "5p" / "FARES TOKEN" in light green plastic, 31mm.

This is similar to the type listed as England, Abingdon, Smith-3BD. The legends, design and diameter are the same for the two types but Smith-3BD is listed as light blue plastic and my piece is light green plastic.

World of Tokens includes images for England, Abingdon, Smith-3BD, these confirm the light blue.

The light green colour of my token is a shade that seems to be a match for the light green of the "Vale of White Horse" token at the start of this topic.

So possibly both light green tokens used to be blue.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

I think i would discount any chance of either the pale blue and the pale green changing evenly to the other. Fade in modern plastic tokens is rare. Colour changes can be initiated  by UV light or possibly by a chemical reacting  with the pigment used to make the token. Both these tokens (the Vale of the White Horse) are pigmented with stable pigments and the chances of them fading evenly in sunlight is close to zero. In the injection moulding process any slight change in the colour of the raw materials ( as batches of material do vary) will cause  colour swirling in the moulded  token and as the change of raw material  from A to B will result in a number of tokens being made with mixed colours, from 100% A through to 100% B. In a strictly colour controlled process, these mixed colour mouldings are rejected and become waste and the moulder has to see this as a cost. If the customer doesn't mind some mixed colours, then the moulder will ship them and charge for them.
I attach two images of two examples of Smith 3BD where the colour change is most likely due to the original manufacture rather than an in-use cause.

Great, plasticman. That means the OP token is in fact made with a differently coloured plastic, since it is evenly coloured. In coin terms, it is a variant, not an error or home-made.

You learn stuff every day here.

Peter

Thanks very much for the information. I have one of the somewhat discolored tokens. I had thought that it was due to some environmental issues. Now I know the real reason.

Art

Quote from: andyg on December 11, 2021, 09:13:37 AM
I've never tried it, but with these injection moulded types I always wondered if it got left in the sun you would end up with a different colour :)

Have you got one of these on your sales list please art

Sorry, no. It is the first one I have come across.

Quote from: artsmith on December 15, 2021, 10:41:32 PM
Sorry, no. It is the first one I have come across.

I've not seen one before.

Here's one that's special. The Junior Instruction Centres are explained here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Junior_Instruction_Centres). Click on the Glasgow link to see how they are listed. The JIC tokens are pretty hard to find and this one is the first to enter the annals of WoT. Imagine being young and unemployed during the great crisis and your government hasn't discovered yet the right policies to get out of the hole the world dug for itself.

Beyond that, this is one token of a highly appreciated batch from a very good friend, playing Father Christmas year after year. The effort he makes and his friendship are the sort of thing Christmas is all about.

Peter

Another counterstamped Menzies token. The same counterstamp as the previous post. This one would be Smith 420 E.

I recently obtained a bag of an earlier version of the Portsmouth City Council (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Portsmouth) £1 concessionary fares scheme token. The design is the same as the orange (2012) and green or turquoise (2013) issues. It is blue an the expiry date is 31st March 2011.


Diameter: 26mm
Weight: 0.92 gram

It's a delight to see how the UK bus and tram token pages in WoT are now probably the best catalogue of these tokens ever and dynamically updated as well. That's your doing, gentlemen and something to be proud of.

I have attached a WoT-ready image.

Peter

POR.100c.jpg

I have two fibre Sheffield Corporation Tramway tokens pictured below. Both are half threepences and as far as I can see, they are the same - both have the helmet sign on the arms - except for the colour. The first, Sheffield A, is close to black (the photo is lightened to show more detail); Sheffield B is grey-brown.


Logically they should match SCT.0015a, b, c or d in World of Tokens (http://worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Sheffield_Corporation_Tramways). However, I can't tell the difference. SCT.0015a is marked "shield with helmet". On the pictures, all have the helmet on top of the shield. Variants b and c have exactly the same description, so what's the difference? Variant d is called black, rather than grey. If that's the only difference with c, is it perhaps caused by something not very relevant, like the amount of colouring agent in the plastic, exposure to sunshine or having been washed inadvertently in someone's pocket?

I don't have Smith. Maybe it contains more information?

Peter

Shield with helmet is this one -

(https://worldofcoins.eu/w/images/b/b3/SCT.002a.jpg)

I might convince myself looking at B and C that the design of the ½ is larger on one of them than the other,  Malcolm added these so we are unfortunately unable to find out any more.

Thank you. A has fallen into place. I measured the ones of b and c on my screen - fortunately, the two pictures are the same size. Th length of the ones is the same on both. Measured along the tops of the 1, the distance to the edges on both sides is the same. On my two specimen, the 1s have the same length, but the figure is slightly wider on the grey-brown (B) token and there is a dot right of the 2 of ½. The bottom of that 2 is also shaped a bit differently, especially towards the right ending.

Peter

From looking at the pictures for b and c, it seems that the D and the two are thinner than the c. I have two varieties of the token (Smith 685 AU) and the difference is the thickness of the D and the 2. I would think that the c token should be listed as a variety of the b token.

Art

Thank you, Art. Glad you have the b and c variant in WoT linked to above. Can you measure the horizontal and vertical size of the D and the 2, please? On my screen, they are the same size on WoT. The lines look slightly thicker on the c variant, but that is probably an optical illusion because of wear.

My POV is that the c and d variant are the same until we get an accurate measurement of a difference. If there is such a difference, I agree that it would prolly make most sense to list the current c as a variant of b as you suggest.

However, I am quite convinced that my B variant shown above should be listed separately because of the relative width of the 1. I intend to replace the current c variant in WoT with my B variant shown above, adding the width of the 1 (I don't know what the width of the WoT variants b and c, measured at mid-height, are; maybe you can measure that too?)

As for my A variant, it must be d on WoT, because it also has no dot behind the 2. Sometimes, I think I see the shadow of a dot on d, but my A definitely has nothing there. I'll mention the dot on WoT.

TIA

Peter

If you look at the 1 of 1/2, the foot on c is much wider, about the width of the 2, giving the impression of a more square 1. I would say that Peter's brown/grey token is b and a better picture than the example on WoT.

I find that the features on the fibre transport tokens are not very clear and improve greatly with a little bit of Renaissance Wax. I leave the edge untreated which, with the porous nature of the material, will let the token "breathe". From looking at the Sheffield fibre tokens on WoT they appear to have had a similar treatment.

Fibre co-op tokens tend to have such a simple design that I tend to find them OK as they are and so don't do anything with them.

I get the impression that the brown/grey fibre tokens started off life as off-white tokens (to simulate the white cellulose ones) that changed colour through years of collecting grime and possibly a foxing effect.


Regards;


John

The black token has a different obverse and reverse die compared to the grey/brown ones.

The obverse difference is seen in the position of the right figure's head relative to the legend.

The reverse difference is seen in the bottom stroke of the 2 - a line with a serif instead of wavy.


Regards;



John

Quote from: Figleaf on July 26, 2011, 03:12:02 AMAnd another (I am spoilt). Saint Helens is an industrial town in Merseyside. The text on the ribbon is EX TERRA LUCEM (light from the earth.)

Peter

The Latin motto alludes to the fact that st Helen's has a very rich coal mining history before it became famous for glass manufacturing