The Kettle Family of Die-Sinkers

[malj1]

There are so many different types of tokens you need to read some the threads in the token section to get some idea.

The machine tokens are described well in this What are machine tokens?

As for the pub tokens this paper deals very well with these. A pdf file which you can save.

[Figleaf]

I have been doing some research for a friend into their family history and he spoke about his grandfather having tokens in relation to the pub he owned  - the Limerick Inn  -  in Gornal Wood, near Dudley.   I did find a copy of one for this pub online but haven't been able to explain to him the reason and use for them

Pub business is time sensitive. Everyone comes and goes at the same time. Sunday is a peak day, Monday isn't. If the pub-owning family cannot handle all the customers on peak hours, they have to hire part-time help. To prevent that the help grabs a share of the profit, sales are made against tokens only: the customer buys tokens at a window manned by a trusted person, e.g. the pub owner's wife. The customer pays with the tokens when ordering and the waiter forks over the tokens when receiving the order. This way, the waiter doesn't have to handle cash.

Peter

[twistingastons]

Thank you for the two replies in answer to my query on why tokens ?    I can understand the use now of using them in pubs and can see if a customer (in whatever capacity) has to buy tokens from a trusted source, then it discourages and could prevent theft.

Were the bagatelle and billiard tokens issued for a similar purpose by Samuel Twist, for customers to use them to play ?

Were tokens also used in some circumstances as an advertising tool ?

I will read the articles recommended and look at the link showing a variety of tokens and medals etc.

The Twist family were major pub owners / victuallers and many were horse dealers.   A number of the Twist women married men who also owned pubs or at least had the licence.   The two pugilist brothers - Henry (Harry) Alfred Broome and John (Johnny) Broome  -  also owned a number of pubs in their time, but mainly in London.

[malj1]

The bagatelle checks are dealt with in the pdf article, see section II. GAMES AND GAMING where a good explanation is given.

I shall see if I can answer some of your questions after you have read through this!

[Figleaf]

The pdf malj1 has provided a link to explains quite well that the tokens could be used as credit items and in other ways. Here is one it doesn't explicitly mention: snooker tables could be equipped with a mechanism containing the balls. The mechanism could be worked with a token, bought from the pub owner and a handle, releasing the balls. As the balls were played into the pockets, they would return to the mechanism.

Most tokens have an element of advertising. One sub-class is for advertising only.

Peter

[twistingastons]

Thank you for two more replies.   I have lots of reading up to do now !

I found an extract (I presume it is) from the Hawkins book online.  This is the beginning of the article :

MINOR PRODUCTS OF BRITISH NINETEENTH-CENTURY DIESINKING By R. N. P. HAWKINS THIS article offers a general survey and classification of British nineteenth century discs .........

It runs to 9 pages which I am just printing off.

You gave me much intersting information on Kettles and Twist connection - helped to confirm in my mind it was Mary Twist  from my Twist family who married Thomas Kettle  -   but if you are interested in any extra information  that I have on Joseph and Samuel Twist and Thomas Kettle etc, I will be glad to provide it.

I found today Huttons History of Birmingham 1783 - Fascinating !   And in that it gives William Kettle as Constable in 1699 then Joseph Kettle 1733 /  John Kettle 1737  /  William Kettle 1743 as either constable or bailiff (I think men who were upstanding did a term for 12 months).  So Maybe they are ancestors of Kettles of Birmingham already noted.

Off to do some reading !

[constanius]

I found today Huttons History of Birmingham 1783 - Fascinating !   And in that it gives William Kettle as Constable in 1699 then Joseph Kettle 1733 /  John Kettle 1737  /  William Kettle 1743 as either constable or bailiff (I think men who were upstanding did a term for 12 months).  So Maybe they are ancestors of Kettles of Birmingham already noted.

Henri Quitel only left France after the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes(1685), the family name was not anglicized to Kettle till later, it is suggested that it was easily changed to Kettle as the name was well known in Birmingham due to the Kettles of the Steel House, an affluent family involved in steel manufacturing, so I doubt if the above constables or bailiffs were from the Quitel/Kettle family.

Good luck with your research.

Pat

[twistingastons]

Kettles steel house was something (else) new to me so I have been looking it up.

Do you think John Kettle - of Kettles steel house in Steelhouse Lane - was of the same family as Henry and Thomas and William ?

It looks as if William Kettle was also a Victualler in Paradise Street and I have details of a William Kettle in 1828 at the Court for Relief of insolvent debtors.  Mind I don't know if this is William Kettle, brother of Thomas.

[constanius]

Do you think John Kettle - of Kettles steel house in Steelhouse Lane - was of the same family as Henry and Thomas and William ?

It looks as if William Kettle was also a Victualler in Paradise Street and I have details of a William Kettle in 1828 at the Court for Relief of insolvent debtors.  Mind I don't know if this is William Kettle, brother of Thomas.

No, John is of the Steel house Kettles, who were well establish before the Quitel/Kettles arrived from France.

In an 1818 directory, Thomas & William are listed as
Kettle, William, Button Mkr In General, Mfr Of Military Stocks &c, Suffolk St.
Kettle, William(2nd Entry), Shoe Clasp &Sleeve Links, Pewter Toy Watches, Suffolk St.

But by 1819-1820 William is in Newhall street(watch & toy) & also listed as a die sinker in Great Charles street while Kettle, Thomas, Gilt Toy Mkr, Factor still in Suffolk St, so it appears that William had left the Kettle family business 1818-1819.



So it is possible/likely? that he is the same William you referenced, giving up die-sinking and becoming the victualler  of the Twist inn on Suffolk street circa 1820, then a commission-agent on Paradise Street(perhaps residing and also working in the Twist inn there), then becoming the victualler at an inn in Walsall, failing in that business hence then appearing in 1828 at the Court for Relief of insolvent debtors.

[constanius]

More pieces from 1814.



FAUVER PEACE 1814-3, ONLY LISTED IN COPPER R.-8(5-10 KNOWN) THIS BEING SILVERED IS EVEN RARER, MIGHT BE UNIQUE.



FAUVER PEACE 1814-2a R.-6



FAUVER Peace 1814-1 R.-6, ONLY LISTED IN BRASS, THIS IS HEAVILY GILDED SO RARER



THE BRASS VERSION OF PEACE 1814-1b

[malj1]

Very interesting, the bicentenary would have been last year.

A great collection....but now you do seem to have cornered the market so they are even even rarer for the rest of us!

I notice they all have the hole and more or less in the same position, I get the impression this is punched rather than drilled.

[malj1]

Another piece from 1814 bearing the same obverse as that of your Reply #27

ALEXANDER EMP. OF ALL THE RUSSIAS rev. THE LIBERTIES OF EUROPE REST^D BY THE UNITED EFFORTS OF ENGLAND AND HER AUGUST ALLIES. THE PRELIMINARIES OF PEACE SIGNED  MAY 30 1814

[constanius]

Thomas Kettle died in 1829 aged 51, his wife Mary(nee Twist) then became owner of the family business, she was assisted by her eldest son Thomas Francis(25), William Robinson(23), the second eldest son, who had worked in the family business had already left to become an accountant but Francis remained, and being the eldest, he was later listed as the owner in 1858(he died 1877) but by 1861 the premises were owned by Frederick Joseph Hobson who carried on the same trades at 99 Suffolk street.

The 1851 Census still had Mary Kettle(she died 1852) as fundholder, son Thomas a Gentleman.

Sir Rupert Alfred Kettle (9 January 1817 – 6 October 1894) was an English barrister and county court judge, involved in arbitration of trade disputes he was Thomas and Mary's youngest child(born 1817).

He was the sole executor for his brother Francis, the last owner of the Kettle family business, which had been founded by Henri Quitel the French Huguenot emigre soon after 1685 and remained in the family until c. 1860, leaving a legacy of interesting tokens as a lasting memorial to almost 200 years of existence.

[constanius]

The 1841 census only lists occupants, ages, occupations & street names but not house numbers.  But by cross referencing directory lists of publicans & names and addresses of the inns on Suffolk st. & the census I have established that

William Kettle(son of Thomas & Mary Kettle) & his wife and young children occupied 97 Suffolk st.
Mary Kettle(owner) & Thomas Francis Kettle(her son & future owner) occupied 98 Suffolk st.
99 Suffolk st. is listed as Unoccupied, so was used only for the business.

This at least explains why, when the business was sold to Hobson c. 1860 his company listed address is only for 99 Suffolk st.

[malj1]

That certainly makes sense of it all, I have come across similar situations before.

Also a lot of confusion is caused later when streets have been renumbered.