1972 Dutch 5 Cent

Started by ghipszky, November 21, 2010, 01:52:00 AM

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ghipszky

This coin is beautiful. It looks like the obverse is the usual. The reverse has 2 berries on it.
Ginger

Prosit

My catalog doesn't tell specifically what plant it is... :'(

Dale

translateltd

My 2009 Schön says it's an orange twig, which kinda makes sense for the Netherlands (House of Orange, national colour).  I hadn't looked closely at these before - thanks for showing and drawing attention to it!


Prosit

Makes sense...the orange is not unknown in earlier Netherlands coin designs.
Dale


Quote from: translateltd on November 21, 2010, 04:03:36 AM
My 2009 Schön says it's an orange twig, which kinda makes sense for the Netherlands (House of Orange, national colour).  I hadn't looked closely at these before - thanks for showing and drawing attention to it!



Figleaf

Indeed. There are two other design elements that have some interest.

First, look at the dingus right of the T in CENT. This is an ancient symbol, the caduceus. The earliest root of the word is the Sanskrit kàrù, meaning poet or singer. From there, it turned into the Greek word kerux, herald or messenger. This word was used to form kerukeion, the messenger's staff. The ultimate messenger was Hermes, messenger of the gods. His staff had two snakes crawling up and it ended in two wings.

Hermes became Mercurius in ancient Rome and he acquired other responsibilities. He became god of roads, of transport, travellers, merchants, trade, eloquence, imposters and thieves. His staff thereby got magic qualities, protecting travellers, herdsmen and conveying wisdom and authority. In the renaissance, when there was renewed interest in things classical, the symbol was revived, usually as a symbol of trade and communication.

That development made the symbol attractive for the Utrecht mint in Napoleonic times. Coins were apparently seen as a means to facilitate trade and communication, no longer primarily as a way to store wealth.

The caduceus is still the Utrecht mint mark. Even when it is always tiny, it has a surprising amount of detail on all the coins.

The other interesting feature of this coin is that the queen is not crowned and wears a diamond studded hair net instead. This piece of jewelry is quite well known in the Netherlands, yet no one I know remembers having seen it. Presumably, it has remained in the family, but there are no pictures of any member of the family wearing it and I haven't found a picture of it on the net. It just seems to have disappeared from view after the design was made.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

ghipszky

Ok next question, why is there a rooster to the left of the C in Cent?
Ginger

a3v1

Ginger,
The rooster is the mark of the acting mintmaster at the time, Dr Ir.M.van den Brandhof. Using the mintmaster's mark on coins also is a Dutch tradition.
Regards,
a3v1
Over half a century of experience as a coin collector.
-------------
Money is like body fat: If there's too much of it, it always is in the wrong places.

Figleaf

Fun little detail: brand (the first part of the mintmaster's name) is fire in Dutch. The cock is used as a symbol for fire, e.g. in the phrase: the red cock crows (there is a fire). In heraldics, this is known as a "speaking" symbol.

Other mintmasters have linked their name with their mark. One well-known example is mintmaster Van Hengel. In Dutch, hengel is angling rod, hence his mark: a fish.

Peter

An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

chrisild

Many French euro coins also have a "speaking symbol": The chief engraver of the Monnaie de Paris is Hubert Larivière. Among religious hunters, St. Hubert is the patron saint of the hunt, and "la rivière" means "the river". Thus Larivière's mark is a combination of a horn and a fish in a river: http://www.monnaiedeparis.fr/collectionneurs/different.htm

Some more info about the Dutch mintmarks and mintmaster symbols (in Dutch) is here:
http://www.knm.nl/Het-muntteken/nl/page/417/
http://www.knm.nl/Muntmeestertekens/nl/page/418/
On each page you can view or download a PDF file that lists the symbols.

Christian

Figleaf

Excellent, Christian. Here are some older examples:

Signs of masters of the West-Friesland mint (alternating between Hoorn, Enkhuizen and Medemblik):

Jan Knol (1720-1741), whose last name means turnip: a turnip
Pieter Buysken (1761-1781) used a herring fishermen of a type known in Dutch as a "buis" (Buysken is a diminutive of buis)

And the Gelre mint (Harderwijk):

Jacobus de Vos (1731-1732), whose last name means fox: a fox
Johan Hensbergen (1732-1748), a hill (berg) or a stallion (hengst) on a hill (berg)
Johan Cramer (1753-1757), a white stork, symbol of birth (kramen is giving birth, but the name is more likely to be derived from kramer, an ambulant salesman)
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

ghipszky

Thank you Peter and Christian and a3v1. This has turned into a really interesting thread.
I had no idea about the different "speaking symbols". Peter thank you for the translations.
I think my favorite "speaking symbol" is the Zeepaard. What does that translate to Peter?
Really interesting topic. Are there other countries that have these speaking symbols on coins or signs?
Ginger

a3v1

The "zeepaard" (seahorse) was used on Dutch coins 1909-1933. It was the mintmaster's mark of Dr.C.Hoitsema. As far as I know there is no link between the name and the symbol used.
Regards,
a3v1
Over half a century of experience as a coin collector.
-------------
Money is like body fat: If there's too much of it, it always is in the wrong places.

Figleaf

As Christian noted, in France also, mintmaster sometimes had a speaking symbol. One example is the grape leaf (in French: feuille de vigne) used by Hugues Vignes (1809-1826) and Alexandre Vignes (1827-1857), mintmasters in Bordeaux. It is not a coincidence that Bordeaux is one of the largest wine producing areas of France. Also, there is the olive branch (branche d'olivier) of Laurent Olivier d'Assenoy (1826-1835), mintmaster in Nantes. Nantes is a trading port, needing peace to flourish.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Samuel Tan

just curious.
Talking about House of Orange. Where they got the idea of Orange? I thought Orange is only grow in hot climate country, not in The Netherlands.
Is it an exotic name imported from other country of their colony?
Further I notice the name of Nassau, I know it was an area in Holy Roman Empire. But is that has to do with Nassau in Bahama?
Samuel tan

chrisild

Nassau is a place in Rhineland-Palatinate, DE - and the castle there was the seat of the House of Nassau. As for Oranje, that refers to the city of Orange in SE France. This article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Orange has some info on the background, and also explains how the older name Arausio turned into Orange. Popular etymology at work, it seems. :)

Christian