Author Topic: Dam of Muhammad Shah, Mint: Elichpur, AH (1)139, KM#A430.1  (Read 3476 times)

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Offline asm

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This 19.6 g coin was labeled as Aurangzeb, Elichpur with the dealer. The date reads mostly (1)139 making it an issue of Muhammad Shah or in the worst case if the dot on the extreme right of the left image is actually a zero, the date would be 1390 making it actually a very recent coin which it is not.

Please help with the attribution. A dam of Muhammad Shah, Elichpur?

Amit
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 03:14:06 AM by asm »
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Offline Oesho

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Re: Mughal?
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2010, 05:37:42 PM »
Quote
A dam of Muhammad Shah, Elichpur?
Yes and nicely dated AH1139.

Offline asm

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Re: Dam of Muhammad Shah, Mint: Elichpur, AH (1)139, KM#A430.1
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2010, 03:16:50 AM »
Dear Oesho,
Thank you for the confirmation.

Amit
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

Offline Rangnath

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Re: Dam of Muhammad Shah, Mint: Elichpur, AH (1)139, KM#A430.1
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2010, 04:55:19 AM »
Alright, so the coin has been cleaned recently.  I love the design of it and the clarity of it.  What a beautiful coin Amit.
richie

Offline Salvete

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Re: Dam of Muhammad Shah, Mint: Elichpur, AH (1)139, KM#A430.1
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 01:53:41 PM »
A contact of mine in India has recently taken delivery of an enormous number of copper coins, most of which will probably go for melting.  He separated out the Elichpur dams (he says there were more Muhammad Shah and Aurangzeb than the other reigns) and  he tells me that he had six dated coins of all reigns out of a total of approaching 1200 Elichpur dams.  If that is typical, the fully dated ones must be scarce to rare.  The dated ones went on offer for Rs.400 and 450 each, and sold quickly.  There seem to be other marks on some of them, but I cannot get much information about that aspect.  Does anybody know whether the local rulers (Nawabs?) used distinguishing marks in any reign after Aurangzeb, please?
Thanks
Salvete
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Offline asm

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Re: Dam of Muhammad Shah, Mint: Elichpur, AH (1)139, KM#A430.1
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 02:13:07 PM »
Dear Salvete,

It is saddening to read that such large treasures are being melted away. But it happens all the time. More and more coins reach the mealters pot and this may include some really scarce coins which the melter or the dealer may not be able to read.

As to the price of the Dam with the date, I have no words. A look at the 'bible' of Mughal coins will explain my statement.

Amit
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

Offline Salvete

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Re: Dam of Muhammad Shah, Mint: Elichpur, AH (1)139, KM#A430.1
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 02:40:18 PM »
Dear Salvete,

It is saddening to read that such large treasures are being melted away. But it happens all the time. More and more coins reach the mealters pot and this may include some really scarce coins which the melter or the dealer may not be able to read.
Amit

In England, just before decimalisation, almost everybody saved old pennies from their change, Amit.  Consequently there are now millions of circulation grade pennies stored up.  Not so many half-pennies, fewer 3d, 6d shilling or higher denominations, but mountains of pennies.  So lower grade pennies cannot be sold, except for about £3-80 per kilogramme for melting.  No dealers want them, so they are being melted without most of them even being checked for scarce dates.  I recently checked several kilos of such coins for a friend of my wife, who had received them as part of her inheritance.  So sad to disappoint her over the value of it all.  In India, copper coins weighed a lot even until fairly recently, and much of the lower-grade Mysore elephant coins, Bikanir takkas and Akbar dams have probably already become pots and pans, electrical wire and statues of gods - or even 'new paise' of the 1950s, and so it goes on.  Yes, it is sad, but re-cycling has always been a worthwhile way to get needed metal or for making new coins - as central Indian coins struck over Bahmani coins amply demonstrate.  Supply and demand.......

I seriously doubt if there will ever be more demand from collectors for Elichpur dams than the dealers can supply, so it is inevitable that lower grades of any common coin will be used for other purposes.  It is just a pity that so much of the scrap has not been checked before it goes.  Maybe in India more care is taken over that aspect, I could not say, but you can bet that varieties of Jawad coppers are becoming 'extinct' while we sleep.

Saslvete
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Dam of Muhammad Shah, Mint: Elichpur, AH (1)139, KM#A430.1
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2010, 08:54:58 PM »
Unfortunately, there's more to a coin hoard than the ones you can sell. With statistical analysis, big hoards like these can yield important information on trading patterns, wealth and finance. I too am saddened by the casual treatment of hoards like these.

Often, this is the consequence of a combination of near-sighted archeologists and bad treasure trove laws. A good law encourages people to report their finds, not to hide them for fear of confiscation without reward.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Salvete

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Re: Dam of Muhammad Shah, Mint: Elichpur, AH (1)139, KM#A430.1
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2010, 10:19:42 AM »
You are right, Figleaf, to deride treasure-trove laws, and this does not just apply to India - we have some pretty daft laws in UK and probably most of Europe.

  As far as India is concerned, it is an undeniable fact that restrictions on trading even common coins of India to collectors in the rest of the world have led to the storing of heaps of coins in unsuitable conditions in cellars, awaiting examination by 'Indian experts' before anybody else is allowed to take a look.  Much of it will probably be there until it rots.  Free dispersal to USA and Europe in particular would allow the stuff to be checked by far more experts, far more quickly and the momentum of research and publication would be accelerated immensely.  Short-sighted, corrupt and stupid officialdom does little to protect the numismatic heritage of India) or anywhere, come to that), and quite a lot to spoil and destroy it, while jealously preventing interested parties getting oportunity to increase and disseminate knowledge of it.

  I am not suggesting that we abandon arttempts to control important historical artefacts, in order to keep them available to the public, but free trade in many readily-available things like coins would do much to destroy 'black markets' and to ensure the proper study of more of the material being unearthed.  Find spots are being lost and hoards are being split up and the information wasted by the crappy laws and the short-sighted way they are often operated.  What can we do about it?  F**k All!

  Salvete
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Offline Overlord

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Re: Dam of Muhammad Shah, Mint: Elichpur, AH (1)139, KM#A430.1
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2010, 05:42:27 AM »
Here is the one I managed to pick up (AH1139, RY p, 17.6 g):

Obverse


Reverse


asm's coin seems to show a dot where the RY appears on this one. Ry 10?

Offline asm

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Re: Dam of Muhammad Shah, Mint: Elichpur, AH (1)139, KM#A430.1
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2010, 10:01:23 AM »
Thanks Overlord. It does surely look so.

Amit
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

Offline Salvete

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Re: Dam of Muhammad Shah, Mint: Elichpur, AH (1)139, KM#A430.1
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2010, 10:58:09 AM »
May I be allowed to sound a note of caution?
I have been shown some nice coins of this type that have four 'gaps' between the legends arranged like a cross or window frame.  One figure is seen in each segment, making up a four-figured complete date.  Since not all four figures are visible on a lot of coins, and dates like '1111', 5555, 9999, 4949, and so on have been found, any incomplete date, and quite a lot of complete 'dates' will have to be discounted from the point of view of dating the coin.  Absolutely fascinating, but what, if anything, do these 'dates' really mean?
Barry
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Offline Overlord

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Re: Dam of Muhammad Shah, Mint: Elichpur, AH (1)139, KM#A430.1
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2010, 11:43:49 AM »
Absolutely fascinating, but what, if anything, do these 'dates' really mean?
Barry
Maybe two die engravers playing tic-tac-toe?  ;D

Offline Salvete

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Re: Dam of Muhammad Shah, Mint: Elichpur, AH (1)139, KM#A430.1
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2010, 11:55:21 AM »
That's as likely as any other reason I can think of, Overlord!!  Any idea of the rules  ;) ?
Barry
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Offline Oesho

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Re: Dam of Muhammad Shah, Mint: Elichpur, AH (1)139, KM#A430.1
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2010, 02:10:34 PM »
IMHO, the the date is clearly AH1139, with the Ry.9 on the reverse side.