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Help with Muhammad Shah Surat rupee

Started by parimal, February 25, 2024, 09:34:03 AM

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parimal

Sometime back got this Muhammad Shah Surat rupee. It has an unusual feature that instead of AH date on the obverse it has some extra character in front of the rulers name.

It would be helpful if someone can provide more information on this.
I saw some coins in my web search that have RY#5 and AH date. But so far haven't been able to find information related to this coin were AH date is replaced by some characters.

Could it be a local issue? I also tried looking into Muhammad Shah Surat rupee coins of Bhonsla Rajas of Nagpur but so far haven't found anything matching.

Weight of the coin is 10.94g

Thanks in advance

"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom." ― Isaac Asimov
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saro

Not sure because this title is not referenced, I think,  but that looks like " صرحت  "authority "
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

parimal

"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom." ― Isaac Asimov
⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯
Blog : https://parimalscoincollection.blogspot.com
Twitter : https://twitter.com/ParryPhilaNumis

saro

another more credible suggestion : " پر محبت " (full of love / loving / beloved)
with the "m" of "mahabat"off flan but "b"well present  ??? need confirmation, anyway this formula is a novelty.
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

capnbirdseye

I got a reply from Shailen Bhandare regarding this coin, but very rare for him he seems unsure of this coin :

I recall seeing this coin in CNG India auction. I haven't come across any other specimen. The coin evidently bears Surat as mint name but it is quite likely a local issue imitating the Surat coins. The word tentatively reads "Parajat" / "Parachat" which might be a name. It could well also be a date code, considering we usually get AH date at this position.
Vic

parimal

Thanks saro and capnbirdseye for your inputs.
I did got it from CNG India auction. Bid on it when observed the extra characters instead of AH date on the obverse.
"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom." ― Isaac Asimov
⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯
Blog : https://parimalscoincollection.blogspot.com
Twitter : https://twitter.com/ParryPhilaNumis

capnbirdseye

I've just downloaded the book "coinage of the Bhonsla Rajas of Nagpur" it mentions that many thousands of rupees were struck there in the name of Muhammad Shah and with Surat mint, they are usually underweight and have various symbols on them, it's a possibility this may be something of that type or similar
Vic

parimal

Quote from: capnbirdseye on February 27, 2024, 03:51:13 PMI've just downloaded the book "coinage of the Bhonsla Rajas of Nagpur" it mentions that many thousands of rupees were struck there in the name of Muhammad Shah and with Surat mint, they are usually underweight and have various symbols on them, it's a possibility this may be something of that type or similar

Yeah I also thought that it could be of Bhonsla Rajas of Nagpur. I have a hard copy of the book "Coinage of the Bhonsla Rajas of Nagpur" but didn't find anything matching there.
"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom." ― Isaac Asimov
⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯
Blog : https://parimalscoincollection.blogspot.com
Twitter : https://twitter.com/ParryPhilaNumis

parimal

"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom." ― Isaac Asimov
⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯
Blog : https://parimalscoincollection.blogspot.com
Twitter : https://twitter.com/ParryPhilaNumis

capnbirdseye

Quote from: parimal on February 27, 2024, 08:47:48 PMIts available on academia.edu

https://www.academia.edu/98622076/Coinage_of_the_Bhonsla_Rajas_of_Nagpur_pp_261_Indian_Coins_Society_Nagpur_1990

There is also an offer of one month free premium subscription for just £1 which I used to download PDF's of several other coin papers of interest
Vic

saro

#10
Quote from: parimal on February 25, 2024, 09:34:03 AMIt has an unusual feature that instead of AH date on the obverse it has some extra character in front of the rulers name.

It could be well a fraction of Muhammad's title : "Sahib Qiran" with other parts out off flan   ???
(and the 2 puzzling dots could be those of " ق " of 'qiran"
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

parimal

Quote from: saro on February 29, 2024, 05:41:58 PMIt could be well a fraction of Muhammad's title : "Sahib Qiran" with other parts out off flan   ???
(and the 2 puzzling dots could be those of " ق " of 'qiran"

Interesting point. 
"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom." ― Isaac Asimov
⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯
Blog : https://parimalscoincollection.blogspot.com
Twitter : https://twitter.com/ParryPhilaNumis

asm

I've been following this coin from the time it was put up for auction....
1) The calligraphy or engraving style is very different from the one seen on the coins minted at the official Surat mint.
2) The symbol in the 'Seen' of 'Julus' is not what is there on the coins of this RY. It was there for just one RY which is 4. RY 5 bears a different symbol. This symbol is observed in coins of Farrukhsiyar from Surat mint and then in just the RY 4 of Muhammad Shah.
3) The referred symbol, which is variously described as carrot 🥕 or heart ♥ is not how it is seen on the coins mentioned in the above point. This one looks very frail or starved.
4) The weight of this piece is much lower (though probably within acceptable limits) than of the contemporary coins from Surat.
5) Looking to the enormous quantities of Surat mint coins of each year from this period, this odd coin rings some alarm bells.

Based on the above, I had (when I first seen this coin) concluded that it was probably not a product of the Mughal mint at Surat but was probably minted elsewhere. Coins of Surat, which were regarded as trade coins were copied at many places and this is probably one of those. I have a collection of such coins (improper calligraphy) which have been noted to have been minted either at some Maratha Mints or in the Salt Ranges of current day Pakistan.......

Amit 
   
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

asm

Quote from: saro on February 29, 2024, 05:41:58 PMIt could be well a fraction of Muhammad's title : "Sahib Qiran" with other parts out off flan   ???
(and the 2 puzzling dots could be those of " ق " of 'qiran"

An excellent suggestion, Saro. I second this. It would also help explain that this was done to ensure that the coin was not deemed a forgery and would have helped the minted escape the wrath of the Empire.

Amit
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

asm

Bhavnagar was known to have minted the Surat coins in name of Shah Jahan III. Both Copper and Silver. I have come across a solitary copper coin, with a date, issued in the name of Muhammad Shah. So could this also have been from there? See this link for the Bhavnagar Copper coin in name of Muhammad Shah.

Amit
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"