possible Asian coin -- Maybe??

[bhx7]

Hi Guys

Just been going through lots of bits today and came across this little guy.
It measures 14mm x 17mm and weighs 1.7g - AE

Any help appreciated

Thanks
Brian

[saro]

Yes, it is of central asian style and with a 180° rotation, it is possible to read "khan" at top and the date : "943" ; that could help...

[saro]

[saro]

Khans of Crimea / beshlik in billon (high copper alloy ?)
From its datation : Shahin Giray I (or Sahib Giray) Khan of Crimea (1532-1551 AD / 938-958 AH)
Not far from Zeno #304093 (but attributed to the last Shahin Giray ?)

[bhx7]

Thanks Saro

When it comes to these types of coins it goes straight over my head. So after a bit of reading, hopefully this will be right!, so in the european calender this coin dates from 1536-1537AD and was named for one of the descendants of Genghis Khan. After your reply I have scoured the web and although found similar types I have been unable to track down this specific coin. I will keep looking. Any links so I could understand and learn more would be truly appreciated.

Thanks again
Brian

[bhx7]

Khans of Crimea / beshlik in billon (high copper alloy ?)
From its datation : Shahin Giray I (or Sahib Giray) Khan of Crimea (1532-1551 AD / 938-958 AH)
Not far from Zeno #304093 (but attributed to the last Shahin Giray ?)

Sorry Saro, hadn't realised that Zeno was a coin site... as I said these are brand new to me.
As I have been studying the coin more I have realised it is much more sophisticated than I had first realsed. I had thought it was very crude. Its form is crude but design is quite intricate.

I have done a quick sketch of what I can see on the coin. Sorry for the poor penmanship.

Regards
Brian

[aws22]

Dear Saro, part of the mint is visible at 10 O'clock of right photo:
ضرب , zarb
في , fi
باغچه‌) سرای) , (Baghcha) Saray
Baghcha Saray (باغچه‌ سرای), also spelled Bakhehisaray, city, southern Crimea, on the Simferopol-Sevastopol railway. Before passing to Russia in 1783, it was the capital of the Crimean khanate. The city has many buildings of historical and architectural interest, including the palace of the Tatar khans built in 1519.

Maythem
 

[saro]

I have done a quick sketch of what I can see on the coin. Sorry for the poor penmanship.

Dear Brian, your sketch is not at all bad and well depicts what is on your coin
Maythem gives the full text whose only small parts are present.
The ruler's name is likely on the right part, hardly legible I'm afraid.
Coins like yours with a clear date are scarce it seems, I wasn't able to find one from this ruler.

[Figleaf]

Congratulations, Brian. You have a great coin and your sketch is wonderful. There is much more information on the background of the coin here. The area has a varied and interesting history under the long-reigning Giray dynasty. The sultans of the Ottoman empire regarded the Giray as their designated successors should they be unable (or unwilling?) to produce a successor themselves.

While reading the link I gave above, keep in mind that Putin, while trying to run the Tatars out of the area, maintains that the Crimea is historically part of Russia.

Peter

[bhx7]

Wow. Thanks Guys. Very much appreciated. Will read and digest.

Brian

[bhx7]

So after reading quite a lot and looking into the history, the most likely attribution of this coin would be Sahib I Giray after founding Bahçeseray in 1532 (939AH) and ruling from there until his death in 1551(957AH).

Please let me know if I have any of that wrong.

I have been talking to a Polish friend who has a lot of family in the Ukraine who has been extremely intrigued at what I have been learning. This is why I love numismatics... it is a portal into the past as well as having the ability to hold some of that past in your hand. I learn new things on a daily basis. What isn't to love.

Thanks
Brian

[saro]

So after reading quite a lot and looking into the history, the most likely attribution of this coin would be Sahib I Giray after founding Bahçeseray in 1532 (939AH) and ruling from there until his death in 1551(957AH).
Please let me know if I have any of that wrong.

Exact !

This is why I love numismatics... it is a portal into the past as well as having the ability to hold some of that past in your hand. I learn new things on a daily basis. What isn't to love.

Exact too !

[Figleaf]

Now that everyone is happy, I am starting to have doubts. I went through around 200 listings for Sahib Giray on Zeno (including the one Saro mentioned above) and all hits with Crimea, Khanate of plus Akce on Numista and did not find anything like this coin.

The general design of the coins I saw was the Giray tamgha (emblem, logo) at the center on one side, lettering on the other side. Sure enough, I don't read Arabic and fully trust the amazing combined abilities of saro and aws22, but that design of five petals or rays in a circle of dots surrounded by a nice edge is not the Giray tamgha.

Indeed, many Giray coins have a small symbol of five (or four) petals or rays touching a solid circle, but the likeness seems superficial only and there is no trace of the intricate edge. Also, if the design is meant to be a variant on the standard five petals or rays, where is the tamgha?

Peter

[saro]

Good remark Peter..
A coin of Crimea Khans is certain.. an attribution to Sahib Giray I from the date is quite certain too, but indeed I haven't be able too to find a similar reverse design...
All Zeno coins of this ruler are in billon (akces or beshliks) of 04-0,7g , Brian's one is in copper and weighs 1,7g; coppers of this ruler are not reported it seems but I see that later coppers of +/- this weight, without tamgha are known.
A non reported coin is not necessary a non-existing coin   

[bhx7]

Now that everyone is happy, I am starting to have doubts. I went through around 200 listings for Sahib Giray on Zeno (including the one Saro mentioned above) and all hits with Crimea, Khanate of plus Akce on Numista and did not find anything like this coin.

The general design of the coins I saw was the Giray tamgha (emblem, logo) at the center on one side, lettering on the other side. Sure enough, I don't read Arabic and fully trust the amazing combined abilities of saro and aws22, but that design of five petals or rays in a circle of dots surrounded by a nice edge is not the Giray tamgha.

Indeed, many Giray coins have a small symbol of five (or four) petals or rays touching a solid circle, but the likeness seems superficial only and there is no trace of the intricate edge. Also, if the design is meant to be a variant on the standard five petals or rays, where is the tamgha?

Peter

I can see exactly what you mean Peter as I have now scoured the web for a number of days and as yet have found no other copper (AE) coinage for Sahib Giray I. However, I have found the intricate heart & loop edge on a number of Crimea Khanate coins, although they nearly all still have the Giray tamgha. The edge however, is a very unique design.

Also, as saro states there are also a number of copper coins attributed to other rules of the Crimea of similar weight and size as the one I have.

I did note that there are numerous bungled dates on the coins of the Crimea, could this be the problem? Is it that the copper coins of Sahib Giray I were just not popular or to low a value at that time. After reading, probably far to much, I also learned that this time in the Crimea was during its peak. There was plenty of Wealth and prosperity, even during the volatile periods. Maybe the need for large quantities of copper coinage was just not needed!

All just suppositions of course. Either way I am now hooked into find out as much as I can.

Again Thank you guys. Its great to brain storm with other like-minded people.

Cheers
Brian