News:

Sign up for the monthly zoom events by sending a PM with your email address to Hitesh

Main Menu

Gregory coin

Started by Crapgamer, September 21, 2022, 11:40:14 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Crapgamer

Can somebody help me identify this coin.
I can make ou the word "GREGORY." with bust facing left. Not sure if IT IS "II"
On reverse I can make out "HISPANIOLA" above what looks like the Irish harp
Copper coin 27mm, 7g VERY WORN.
I have pictures but not able to upload as it says file size is too big. Not sure how to make file size smaller.
Thank you all in advance.

Figleaf

It sounds like a British evasive halfpenny. Full obverse text might be GREGORY•TI•ROW, reverse NORTH WALES 1771.

Evasives were light weight imitations that looked enough like the real thing to be accepted, in particular by the (semi) illiterate. The obverse legend was meant to be read as GEORGIVS II REX. The reverse legend refers to a popular trade token.

For help on scaling pictures down see this board.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

FosseWay

It may be a regal halfpenny of Ireland - it depends how certain you are about the text. Above the harp should be HIBERNIA and on the other side GEORGIVS II or III depending on monarch.

If on the other hand you're certain it says something else (HISPANIOLA, GREGORY or whatever), then as Peter says it's an evasion. Made to be good enough to fool illiterate people and barmaids in dingy pubs, but different enough to get the maker off the hook for forgery.

brandm24

Sounds like an evasion to me too. Looking forward to seeing a picture

During the US Hard Times era and the Civil War, small change looking similar to official circulating coinage was minted by private companies and individuals. Hard currency was hoarded so there had to be an alternative so commerce didn't grind to a halt. While some looked official, especially Civil War era pieces, there were always design differences that kept them legal.

Bruce
Always Faithful

JohnI

#4
The reverse is a known evasion reverse that is listed with the AUCTORI PLEBIS obverse.

The obverse probably reads GREGORY III PON. This a known evasion obverse, which has a few die combinations and varieties. It is known with IC below the bust as is the AUCTORI PLEBIS obverse. So the die combination does look like it came from the same issuer as the AUCTORI PLEBIS evasions.

The AUCTORI PLEBIS evasions are included in the early american token series and examples can be seen on the internet.



John

Figleaf

In short ... we need a picture. Post on the board I linked to above if you need help.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Crapgamer

Here are the pics, maybe not great but its a very worn coin and I am not great with tech.

Figleaf

#7
Excellent. It is indeed an evasive. I confirm the reverse legend as HISPANIOLA. The design is indeed the harp of Ireland. I found two similar tokens on the net here. They are useful, because yours is not the same. The obverse legend on your token differs.

The distinction between British and American is pretty unsharp anyway, since they were almost all made in Britain and shipped to the colonies when they were banned in Britain. This alone explains why one reverse can have different obverses. James Atkins made an attempt to catalogue evasives but he does not list your token, but see Atkins 172 and 196. You can download the book here.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

FosseWay

Having the harp, this will have been made for/in Ireland in the first instance (though quite possibly also shipped overseas). The aforementioned illiterates and barmaids in murky pubs would have been able to tell the difference between the harp and the seated Britannia figure that was on the regal issues from Great Britain, so it would have been risky to use one type in the other jurisdiction, whether evasive, real or full-on fake.

brandm24

These tokens are also listed by Walter Breen in his "Complete Encyclopedia of U.S, and Colonial Coins" and are described as nonlocal imports.

Bruce
Always Faithful

Figleaf

@bruce61813: not that it matters, but are Breen's listings for the Auctori Plebis tokens or for a token with some variant of the name and title of George II or George III?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Globetrotter

Quote from: Crapgamer on September 21, 2022, 11:40:14 AMCan somebody help me identify this coin.
I can make ou the word "GREGORY." with bust facing left. Not sure if IT IS "II"
On reverse I can make out "HISPANIOLA" above what looks like the Irish harp
Copper coin 27mm, 7g VERY WORN.
I have pictures but not able to upload as it says file size is too big. Not sure how to make file size smaller.
Thank you all in advance.


Why don't you give the link to en.numista.com, where this has already been discussed?

Crapgamer

I did ask the question on https://en.numista.com/forum/topic124586.html but had less response than I had on this site.
It is just an interesting topic, I have found the obverse design and the reverse design but not on the same coin.
One coin I found with left facing bust GRAGORY II PON not GREGORY, all other GREGORY coins are right facing bust.

JohnI

The most complete listing of evasions was written by Alan Judd, a coin dealer and collector trading as Coins of Beaston, who was a kean collecter of evasions. His booklet listing evasions is called "A Journey Through the Monkalokian Rain Forest in Search of the Spiney Fubbaduck". It gives each identified obverse and reverse a die number. This was used for the listing of evasions in "The Token Book" published by Galata. You will also see some references to Cobwright numbers in evasion listings. These are Alan's die numbering system.

The obverse is probably the GREGORY. TI. ROW. (G.1194) which is only listed with a blank reverse and two harp reverses - HEBERNIA and NORTH WALES. The harp reverses are Atkin 352 and 353.

If you look at the Canadian blacksmith series there is also a crude legendless token, Wood 12, which is very similar in bust style to your evasion with a harp reverse.





John

brandm24

Quote from: Figleaf on September 22, 2022, 06:11:46 PM@bruce61813: not that it matters, but are Breen's listings for the Auctori Plebis tokens or for a token with some variant of the name and title of George II or George III?

Peter
No, he lists actual Auctori Plebis tokens. He makes note of seven varieties.

Bruce
Always Faithful