Cartwheel restrike

Started by gs17590, January 10, 2010, 01:28:46 AM

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gs17590

At first look this is a nice coin, description phrased to catch the unwary?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350300581439&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

andyg

I'd agree - especially as it doesn't mention re-strike till halfway down the listing.
However I have seen these pieces listed with no mention of re-strike at all.

I've never been 100% sure if I'd know how to tell a restrike - other than the fact that the coin looks too good.  I'm glad I bought mine in 1989, long before the internet....

RHM22

Look at the featured question. "1797 or perhaps a little after." Maybe 200 years after?

andyg

Quote from: RHM22 on January 10, 2010, 01:44:34 AM
Look at the featured question. "1797 or perhaps a little after." Maybe 200 years after?

Possibly, these coins were struck as late as 1830, the restrikes begin from around 1848.
I do not think that this particular coin is a modern restrike. 
One would need a copy of a good reference book such as Peck's English, Copper, Tin and Bronze coins if one were to be certain.  For more info see here

gs17590

Yes, IMHO this is an attempt to mislead for financial gain.

Iain

Quote from: AJG on January 10, 2010, 01:40:34 AM
I'd agree - especially as it doesn't mention re-strike till halfway down the listing.
However I have seen these pieces listed with no mention of re-strike at all.

I've never been 100% sure if I'd know how to tell a restrike - other than the fact that the coin looks too good.  I'm glad I bought mine in 1989, long before the internet....

andyg

Quote from: gs17590 on January 10, 2010, 01:58:25 AM
Yes, IMHO this is an attempt to mislead for financial gain.

Iain


For want of a better phrase - I think this one is an original re-strike.
(not made in the last 10 years or so)

gs17590

The seller was aware of this.  The important ref is in the non-bold (small print) at the end "THIS COIN IS A RE-STRIKE PROOF AS LISTED IN PECK"

Iain
 
Quote from: AJG on January 10, 2010, 01:57:03 AM
Possibly, these coins were struck as late as 1830, the restrikes begin from around 1848.
I do not think that this particular coin is a modern restrike. 
One would need a copy of a good reference book such as Peck's English, Copper, Tin and Bronze coins if one were to be certain.  For more info see here

andyg

trouble is - that if it is indeed an early restrike it's probably worth more than an example of the currency coin in similar condition.  We only have the sellers word however, but I've no reason to doubt this.
The Soho mint themselves produced some of the unofficial restrikes, using the original dies and machinery.

Personally I wouldn't buy this coin, not because I doubt it's provenance, but because I just don't know enough about the subject to be certain exactly what it is.

gs17590

My wife is saying at this very moment that I need to go out with my mates! :D
I'm minded to bid for this just to compare with my genuines from 20+ years ago.

I.



Quote from: AJG on January 10, 2010, 02:09:33 AM
trouble is - that if it is indeed an early restrike it's probably worth more than an example of the currency coin in similar condition.  We only have the sellers word however, but I've no reason to doubt this.
The Soho mint themselves produced some of the unofficial restrikes, using the original dies and machinery.

Personally I wouldn't buy this coin, not because I doubt it's provenance, but because I just don't know enough about the subject to be certain exactly what it is.

UK Decimal +

I got mine for £0.0267 on eBay!  8)   But it was in a bag of mixed coins.

I see that 8,601,600 were produced.   I wonder how many still exist.   Perhaps one day I'll get a better one.  ::)

Bill.

Ilford, Essex, near London, England.

People look for problems and complain.   Engineers find solutions but people still complain.

Figleaf

I have never seen one that worn! Maybe the coin spent some 200 years in the ground and was recovered with a metal detector. Fertilizer will do this sort of damage to copper.

These coins usually come in surprisingly good condition. The accepted explanation is that grocers used them as weights. Maybe so, but that suggests that the British government either accepted them as fair weights or had no legislation on checking weights used in trade. Maybe not.

My preferred explanation is that when the Napoleonic wars broke out and the copper price shot up, people hoarded these coins for their copper content. Being people, they forgot about them until they could neither be spent or melted profitably. Since these coins were the last ones struck before Napoleon, they are looking better than the rest.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

UK Decimal +

I don't think it's a detector find.   The surface was a natural 'black' as though from circulation and then being 'thrown aside in a drawer'.   All that I have done is carry it in a pocket with a couple of other copper coins in similar condition, to refresh it in a natural manner.   That is what has made it 'recognisable', otherwise it was a black disc with the 'cartwheel' profile.   But the 1797 is a guess!!!

I think that it is too worn for the year to ever show properly, but I'm enjoying showing it in the shops where my interests are known.

Maybe it's 'rare' because of the condition!  ;)

Bill.
Ilford, Essex, near London, England.

People look for problems and complain.   Engineers find solutions but people still complain.

andyg

Quote from: UK Decimal + on January 15, 2010, 07:44:03 PM
I think that it is too worn for the year to ever show properly, but I'm enjoying showing it in the shops where my interests are known.

The tops of the 7's are visible, the 1 at a push but the 9 is mostly guesswork :'(

UK Decimal +

Quote from: AJG on January 15, 2010, 07:54:34 PM
The tops of the 7's are visible, the 1 at a push but the 9 is mostly guesswork :'(

You're right.   The second '7' is very clear under a magnifying glass and I can almost make out the other numerals.   An interesting exercise, I'll keep carrying it around and see if it becomes any clearer.

When I originally thought about cleaning it, I decided NO.   It's been around for a couple of centuries now and a few more days wear won't do any damage.   Into pocket with a couple of other coins (one of which is hammered) in a similar state and let them clean themselves as they are all past the usual 'collector' condition.

I'll keep this topic updated and also post the other two sometime.

Bill.
Ilford, Essex, near London, England.

People look for problems and complain.   Engineers find solutions but people still complain.

gs17590

In the 70s/80s when these turned up fairly regularly in local general auctions here, my personal experience was that the majority of poor condition coins tended to be the pennies. This inclines me more towards a combination of factors. e.g. the size and weight made the 2d more unpopular than the 1d as pocket coinage and I can see that many twopences were possibly put away as novelty keepsakes. I suppose a coin of certified 1oz/2oz weight would be ok for the scales at mint, not exactly a standard weight by modern standards. 

Iain

Quote from: Figleaf on January 15, 2010, 05:41:24 PM
I have never seen one that worn! Maybe the coin spent some 200 years in the ground and was recovered with a metal detector. Fertilizer will do this sort of damage to copper.

These coins usually come in surprisingly good condition. The accepted explanation is that grocers used them as weights. Maybe so, but that suggests that the British government either accepted them as fair weights or had no legislation on checking weights used in trade. Maybe not.

My preferred explanation is that when the Napoleonic wars broke out and the copper price shot up, people hoarded these coins for their copper content. Being people, they forgot about them until they could neither be spent or melted profitably. Since these coins were the last ones struck before Napoleon, they are looking better than the rest.

Peter