4d The British Silver Groat

[UK Decimal +]

4d - The British Silver Groat

Although the Silver coins of 4d, 3d, 2d and 1d are normally associated with Maundy Money, which is a subject in itself, a number were also struck for use both at home and in the colonies.   Here are a few of the 4d variety struck for everyday use which are the ones with Britannia on the reverse, rather than the figure '4'.   They appear to have been struck intermittently between 1836 and 1888, these dates covering the reigns of King William IV and Queen Victoria.

The diameter is 16mm and weight 1.9g and it is 92.5% Silver with grained edge.

I do not propose trying to write a full narrative about them, only to illustrate the ones that I possess which should give a general picture.   Please, if you have any other information or are able to illustrate any others, add them to this topic.

Illustrated below is a well worn example from the first year of issue, 1836, and I should be able to show some more in the next few days.

Bill.

EDIT 31 Dec 09:   Silver content added.
EDIT 01 Jan 10:   Grained edge added.

[UK Decimal +]

Somewhere in the post to me are Groats for 1844 and 1845 and I will post scans of them as soon as they arrive.   If you have any between 1836 and 1844, this would be a good time for you to post illustrations.

Bill.

[bart]

I can help with a better illustration of the 1836 4 pence.

Bart

[UK Decimal +]

Thanks again Bart.   I know tha mine is a rather poor example, but hopefully I'll have some better ones soon.

Bill.

[Figleaf]

The 4d Britannia coins did nor circulate in Britain to any significant extent. Most were shipped to British Guiana, where they were used as a replacement for the 1/4 guilder. Smaller shipments went to a number of Caribbean Islands: Grenada, Saint Vincent, Saint Lucia, Barbados, the Leeward Islands and Trinidad and Tobago. It is not clear to me why these islands would have liked the coin, since the £/$ rate was 4/2, or 50 pennies to the dollar, meaning that the groat was worth 8¢.

These odd denominations came about as a consequence of the reforms of 1825. The intention of these reforms was to introduce British money as the sole standard in all British colonies, the sort of nightmare only a bureaucrat far away from reality in the colonies could think of. Very large colonies, such as India and Canada, just couldn't be persuaded to accept British money and in the small ones, the locals would keep using the traditional denominations in small transactions, so they needed the odd denominations. In addition, the 1825 reforms overvalued the Mexican dollar, which promptly drove out British coins as they arrived. Only further reforms would remedy the situation.

Peter

[andyg]

The 4d Britannia coins did nor circulate in Britain to any significant extent. Most were shipped to British Guiana, where they were used as a replacement for the 1/4 guilder.

I guess it depends which book you read as to who you believe, this (below) is from Coincraft.

[Figleaf]

If you read the first para as referring to the groat with the "4" reverse and the second as referring to the groat with the Britannia reverse there would no longer be a contradiction with my source (Pridmore). Joseph Hume was an early Victorian (1777-1855) and the "4" groats were struck until 1837.

Wikipedia says: According to Hawkins' History of the Silver Coinage of England, a groat was known as a "Joey", "so called from Joseph Hume, M.P., who strongly recommended the coinage for the sake of paying short cab-fares, etc."

Peter

[UK Decimal +]

Although the 'Britannia' Groat is the same diameter as the 3d, the Groat has a grained edge.   I suggest that the 'Britannia' was shown as a further means of differentiating between the two similar coins.   Another difference is that my Groat (1836) has ↑↑ alignment, but the 3d was ↑↓ until 1887.

Has anyone any Maundy sets?   A few words about the differences between Maundy and Circulation coins would be interesting.   I understand that the Maundy ones are to Proof standard.

I hope to write sections on all the small coins, the silver ones and also down to fractions of a farthing.   I understand that although many listings show 'for colonies' (or similar), that they were all acceptable in Britain.

Bill.

[translateltd]

If you read the first para as referring to the groat with the "4" reverse and the second as referring to the groat with the Britannia reverse there would no longer be a contradiction with my source (Pridmore). Joseph Hume was an early Victorian (1777-1855) and the "4" groats were struck until 1837.

Wikipedia says: According to Hawkins' History of the Silver Coinage of England, a groat was known as a "Joey", "so called from Joseph Hume, M.P., who strongly recommended the coinage for the sake of paying short cab-fares, etc."

Peter

Both paras refer to the Britannia groat.  The "4" groat had been around for a lot longer than that.
I suspect both reasons will have applied - convenience of trade (even if only for the customer/passenger!) and for use in the colonies.

[UK Decimal +]

The earliest references to the Groat (at a quick glance) are during the reigns of Edward I (1272-1307, England) and David II (1329-1371, Scotland).   This is certainly a very involved subject.

I must admit that I tend to just look for information from about 1816 onwards when I prepare these articles and base them on Coin Yearbook with added information from other sources.   Unfortunately I am not a historian.

I try to give some basic information which I glean from whatever sources I can find and bring it together in one place.   I am pleased to see discussion like this taking place, as this is how we can all learn.

Bill.

[translateltd]

The groats forming part of the 1-2-3-4 series seem to start from the Restoration in 1660 (or thereabouts) - there were hammered issues briefly, then milled coins from around 1670, with C's on the reverse representing the denomination (one for a penny, four interlinked C's for a groat); under James II the denomination was spelt out in I's (conveniently representing Roman numerals as well as the King's initial (I for IACOBVS), which explains why the four was IIII and not IV); the "crowned numeral" reverse was standard from 1689.  I presume four combined W&M monograms would have been far too cumbersome!

[translateltd]

Some of mine - pics are also on my quick-n-nasty Yahoo gallery :-)

First four:

Charles II, Undated type, 1663-9
Charles II, 4 interlinked C's 1684/3 overdate
James II, 4 I's 1686
Anne, Crowned 4 1704

[translateltd]

Another four:

George I 1727
William IV "Joey" 1837
Victoria "Joey" 1840
Edward VII Maundy issue, Crowned 4 type, 1903