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Two Fanams

Started by Atalaya, November 15, 2021, 02:41:21 PM

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Atalaya

Hello, I've been quietly reading in this forum for some time now. Thank You all for this wonderful source of knowledge!

Are these two fanams modern forgeries? I am pretty sure about the first one, since I found examples from the same dies/moulds quickly. The numerals on the second one look unusual to me.
Is the Vira Raya-type one a modern creation or are there comparable real historic coins? I found questionable attributions to Maratha Empire, Peshwas and to Mysore, Haidar Ali. Unfortunately, I don't have Hiller, so please could you enlighten me about those two coins? I don't really mind, if they are fake as long as they are based on historic patterns.

Regards,
Atalaya

First one:
?, 3,1 g.

Second one:
Mysore, Tipu Sultan (1782-1799), Patan, 1222 (AM)/1793, 0,35 g.

Atalaya

So, I've recommended worldofcoins in another forum because of it's active base of collectors of Indian coins in the past... and my seemingly easy question doesn't get a reaction in two days?

Where did it go wrong? Apologies, if I made a mistake that I am not aware of.

Regards,
Atalaya

Figleaf

Don't worry, things move slowly here. A week of silence is normal. In addition, your questions carry extra responsibility. Saying something is genuine or not involves risk and money. We do answer such questions, but with additional care taken.

I have no specific knowledge on these pieces. In general, the first one is not machine-struck. If you find die-identical pieces, that is highly suspect, since un-hardened dies wear quickly. Do take into account that the dies for such tiny coins will wear less, since it requires less power to strike the coins, while coins struck in large quantity (i.e. easy to find today) means more die varieties.

I don't have the resources to go into the other coin's status. I am sure other members have. In such cases, my tactic is to send a PM to someone who has posted much on similar coins, asking for his attention. That works quite often, since there is much goodwill among members.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

asm

Not an expert on these but for the second coin, please check this.

Amit
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

Atalaya

Hello,

thank you for your replies! I didn't expect this forum to be so slow. But maybe this corner is especially quiet. ;)

I had planned to start my posting career here properly in the introduction section in the not-so-distant future, but when these fanams arrived, I opened a thread right away, so that I could return them easily if need be. However, during the last days I decided to keep them anyway, they were not that expensive and I like their appearance.

Someone on this forum declared the Vira raya-type to be a modern invention nearly ten years ago. The post hinted that more information could probably be found in the book by Hiller. So my question still stands. Has this coin a proper historic pattern or not?

Quote from: asm on November 23, 2021, 10:09:04 AM
Not an expert on these but for the second coin, please check this.

Amit

Thank you for your suggestion, but zeno.ru was my starting point :) This fanam-type definitely has been struck in historic times (of Tipu Sultan that is), but the arabic numerals look sketchy to me unlike those which can be seen for example on zeno.ru.

Kind regards,
Atalaya
 

Figleaf

Quote from: Atalaya on November 23, 2021, 03:08:00 PM
Someone on this forum declared the Vira raya-type to be a modern invention nearly ten years ago. The post hinted that more information could probably be found in the book by Hiller. So my question still stands. Has this coin a proper historic pattern or not?

That helps a bit. In that thread, Hans Herrli's book is mentioned. Is that the book you meant? The upper coin is said to resemble one in Herrli's book. That doesn't mean much. IIRC, Herrli lists a number of fakes in a separate section and I can't tell if the catalogue number refers to a section of good coins or fakes. Anyway, it's not like your coin.

The lower coin is much like yours (I take it yours is gold?) Akona says that particular type is a modern fake. That doesn't necessarily mean all Vira Raya fanams are fakes. More important, I don't know how to interpret Oesho's post when he says "I agree with Akona's judgement about the vira-raya fanams". Akona is no longer around, but Oesho is, so I sent a PM to him for you.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Atalaya

#6
OMG, I am so terribly sorry to have caused confusion by wrongly naming Hans Herrli! I`ve written so much about an author named Hiller in a completely different context, that my brain played tricks on me.

This Vira raya-fanam above is from the same die/mould as the one in question 9 years ago, because they show the same "scratches" and errors. For example the line in continuation of the horizontal part of the h-like structure above the boar or the linear error along its tail.

I guess my fanams are gold.

Thank you very much for your efforts!

Iannis

EDIT: Added image to illustrate my description. BTW, the same is true about the one linked from my first post. That's at least 3 individual pieces from the same dies!


drnsreedhar

#7
@ Atalaya
Your second coin is easy to answer. That is a Fanam of Tipu sultan of Mysore, Patan mint, dated AH.1222.
The first coin is a puzzle. That fanam had been in circulation in South India from Hoysala and Vijayanagara period and prevailed with minor differences in almost the entire Southern states including Travancore, Cochin, Calicut, Mysore, Thanjavur (Marathas), Arcot and even in the name of contemporary Mughal rulers. From the pattern it is from the extreme South, Travancore or Calicut (Kozhikode). Its weight is usually around 400 mg and the weight standard was called "panamida" meaning weight of a fanam.
To add to this, there are modern forgeries in plenty.
Dr.Sreedhar

drnsreedhar

Quote from: Atalaya on November 23, 2021, 03:08:00 PM

Someone on this forum declared the Vira raya-type to be a modern invention nearly ten years ago.

There are three varieties, Vira raya, Anantharaya and Kaliyan depending on the design on its obverse. These were known for centuries. But what was stated in the post by that author must be that their fakes were discovered recently.
Dr.Sreedhar