Author Topic: Not a Spade Guinea  (Read 713 times)

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Offline bagerap

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Not a Spade Guinea
« on: April 28, 2020, 03:45:51 PM »
Interesting piece, Facing busts of George III and Charlotte, which I'm certain I've seen many times before.
Around which: GEORGIVS III DEI GRATIA  CARLOTTA REGINA

Reverse, crowned shield of arms
Around which: F D B ET L D S R I A T ET E 1792 M B F ET H REX (Run-on text, no spaces or punctuation)
Apart from the misplaced and impossible date, it is also the size of a five guinea, 39 mm.
There should be some record of this piece but as yet it's avoiding me.



Offline FosseWay

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Re: Not a Spade Guinea
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2020, 04:12:57 PM »
Do you have / have you looked in the book "A Thousand Guineas"?

If not, I'll have a look later.

Offline bagerap

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Re: Not a Spade Guinea
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2020, 04:33:46 PM »
I donl't have that, though it's on a very long list. I'd be interested to see if it is listed as I had the , probably erroneous, impression that the book covered only the Spade Guinea tokens. Thank you.

Offline FosseWay

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Re: Not a Spade Guinea
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2020, 08:13:31 PM »
The book "A Thousand Guineas Plus" (Neilson and Warburton, 2013) has four similar pieces listed under the heading "Five Guineas" but they are all 31-31.5 mm diameter. All are dated 1762.

9760
O. GEORGIVS III DEI GRATIA. CHARLOTTA REGINA:, facing portraits of George and Charlotte
R. Pre-1787 shield and legend, no stops in legend, band of crown has 3 diamonds and 2 ovals.
Plain edge, die axis 0 degrees, 31 mm

9762
As last
Plain edge, die axis 135 degrees, 31.5 mm

9763
As last
Plain edge, die axis 180 degrees, 31 mm

9765
O. as last
R. similar but with stops in legend, band of crown has 3 diamonds and double pearls
Plain edge, die axis 180 degrees, 31.5 mm

All are given a value range of 6, which equates to £25-£45 (2012/13).

Were it not for the much greater diameter, yours would appear to be one of the first three, since there are no stops on the reverse.


Offline bagerap

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Re: Not a Spade Guinea
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2020, 10:36:06 PM »
Thank you so much. Measured again and I stuffed up the first time; it is indeed 31 mm and 1762. Should have gone to Specsavers. Thus, it proves to be the last one, 9763.

Offline bagerap

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Re: Not a Spade Guinea
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2020, 04:08:27 PM »
Another piece has emerged from the woodwork. A guinea this time, but one I've not seen before. Nicely struck up too.
Obv: What appears to be the correct bust of George III, right
         GEORGIVS · III   DEI · GRATIA

Rev: Can't pin down if the shield is right for the date, there were a few varieties
         M · B · F · ET · H · REX · F · D · B · ET · LD · S · R · J785

The legend is incomplete. 24 mm, 4.9 gr.

Offline FosseWay

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Re: Not a Spade Guinea
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2020, 10:26:43 PM »
Unfortunately, unless I'm being more than usually unobservant, this one doesn't seem to be in the book. I've never seen one with a shield like that before!

Offline bagerap

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Re: Not a Spade Guinea
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2020, 12:24:29 AM »
It looks to be an imitation of a Third Head guinea with a Fourth Head date

Offline bagerap

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Re: Not a Spade Guinea
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2021, 03:00:31 PM »
Mr Warburton spotted my listing of this and kindly informed me that his reference is 1350.

Offline FosseWay

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Re: Not a Spade Guinea
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2021, 03:09:47 PM »
Oh yes, so it is! It's in a different section of the book called "Early George III Guineas" which I didn't notice before. Value range 4, = £10-£20.

Offline bagerap

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Re: Not a Spade Guinea
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2021, 03:10:04 PM »
And here's another, 1761 this time. Earlier head and full reverse legend. 23.2 mm.

Offline FosseWay

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Re: Not a Spade Guinea
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2021, 03:16:24 PM »
I think this one is no. 0900 but there are numerous variations, mostly not illustrated, which depend on the precise placement of the ribbon tails of the king's coiffure in relation to the letters of GEORGIVS. There are also variations dependent on die axis - what's yours?

Offline FosseWay

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Re: Not a Spade Guinea
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2021, 03:19:37 PM »
Actually, reading the descriptions more closely I realise that 0900 is the only one with a colon after GRATIA (as opposed to a stop, stop and star, or nothing). If your alignment is 180° that clinches it.

Value range 5, £15-£30.

Offline bagerap

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Re: Not a Spade Guinea
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2021, 04:45:51 PM »
Thank you very much, coin rotation it is. The book has now crept to thye top of my (very long) list.