Author Topic: GLORIOVS IER VES please help identify  (Read 1565 times)

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Offline jsalgado

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GLORIOVS IER VES please help identify
« on: February 06, 2015, 01:06:06 PM »
GLORIOVS IER VES  G.D
HEBRIDES 1791

« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 07:16:35 PM by eurocoin »

Offline Quant.Geek

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Re: GLORIOVS IER VES please help identify
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2015, 01:40:41 PM »
A two second google found:

Atkins, J., The Tradesmen's Tokens of the Eighteenth Century, W.S. Lincoln, 1892

See page 390, token #225.  So, it is a token.  I will leave it to the other members for a better attribution as I don't collect these and don't have much knowledge in them...

Regards,

Ram

A gallery of my coins can been seen at FORVM Ancient Coins

Offline bagerap

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Re: GLORIOVS IER VES please help identify
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2015, 01:41:59 PM »
Looks to be an unofficial token imitating an Irish (Hibernia) halfpenny

Offline Figleaf

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Re: GLORIOVS IER VES please help identify
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2015, 02:06:56 PM »
Usually classified as "evasive" or "imitation regal". Most are dated 1769-1797. Earlier dates are bogus. Some of the later dates may be bogus also. They were driven out by the heavier and better struck 1790-1796 tokens that to an extent did have the name of the issuer. The last catalogue I know of is the one QG linked to.

This one uses GLORIOVS.IER.VES to dupe the illiterate into thinking it reads GEORGIVS.III.REX, while HEBRIDES stands in for HIBERNIA. It was therefore destined for Ireland, imitating a 1769 halfpenny. Another one of these series has the legends *AUCTORI* *PLEBIS** and *INDEP : ET : LIBER* 1787. Comically, US catalogues often consider it American.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline jsalgado

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Re: GLORIOVS IER VES please help identify
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2015, 02:38:49 PM »
Many thanks!

Offline constanius

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Re: GLORIOVS IER VES please help identify
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2015, 04:42:32 PM »
This one uses GLORIOVS.IER.VES to dupe the illiterate into thinking it reads GEORGIVS.III.REX, while HEBRIDES stands in for HIBERNIA. It was therefore destined for Ireland, imitating a 1769 halfpenny. Another one of these series has the legends *AUCTORI* *PLEBIS** and *INDEP : ET : LIBER* 1787. Comically, US catalogues often consider it American.

Peter

When something, no matter where it is made or intended to be used, becomes part of the history of another place  by its presence & use it surely also becomes an artifact of that place and of interest to museums & collectors there;

http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/CtfBrit.intro.html

Following the end of the war in 1783 British counterfeiters saw America as a prime market, especially since passing counterfeit coppers had been made a felony in Britain in 1771. Thus a flood of these counterfeits made their way to America. In fact, Newman has argued as early as 1785 or 1786 some varieties of counterfeit halfpence were produced in Britain solely for export to America. He has shown the five known varieties of 1785 counterfeit halfpence (from three obverse and three reverse dies) share the same letter punches (including what appears to be a specific broken R punch). Newman went on to assigned their manufacture to Britain because the same letter punches had been used to produce an obverse die for George III counterfeit Irish halfpence. Only one Irish coin made from that die has been discovered and that item has no date on the reverse but rather, the reverse contains a brockage, or inverse image, of the obverse! The evidence that these punches were used on an Irish counterfeit and the lack of any evidence connecting the punches to America led Newman to to suspect a British origin for coppers. Further Newman concluded the 1785 counterfeits were made solely for export because no examples of 1785 counterfeit halfpence have ever been discovered in English collections, rather all known examples have been found in worn condition in older American collections. Newman went on to suggest Massachusetts as a port of entry for the coppers. The Massachusetts Act of 1750 prohibiting importation of counterfeit coppers expired on November 1, 1785. No new law was enacted for eight months creating a "window of opportunity" for British counterfeiters.

The John Bridges Tavern, located just northwest of Ft. Ligonier in western Pennsylvania, was in operation ca. 1775-1795. In the excavation of that site 25 copper coins and four unidentifiable copper disks were unearthed. Fourteen of the sixteen halfpence were counterfeit (there were 11 counterfeit George III halfpence of which two were American made, 3 counterfeit George II halfpence, 1 regal George III halpenny and 1 regal George II halfpenny). The other coins unearthed included: 1 regal George II farthing, 1 cut regal George III halpence (only 1/4 of the coin), 1 New Jersey copper, 1 Virginia halfpenny, 1 Constellatio Nova copper of 1785, 2 Connecticut coppers, 2 French coppers, the 4 completely worn copper disks (which Trudgen suspects were halfpence). In all there were 16 halfpence and 9 other coppers. Of the 25 coppers 64% were British halfpence and out of those only two or 8% were regal and another two or 8% were American counterfeits, thus 48% of all the identifiable coppers found at the site were counterfeit British halfpence.

The Massachusetts Centennial  of January 11, 1786:
The copper coinage, current in our town, must be a considerable loss to the citizens at large, as the intrinsick(sic) value of most of the coppers in circulation, is not half what they pass for. Scarce a British vessel arrives in any port on the continent, but what it brings very great quantities of rap(sic) half-pences, and yet shameful as it certainly is, this inundation of base metal is passed with impunity and indifference
.
The Massachusetts Spy  for March 16, 1786 went further:
...nearly one-half of the copper coin in this country for twenty or thirty years past has been of a base kind manufactured at Birmingham in England; however, it crept into circulation and did ... pass for the same value as those which are genuine.


An investigation by the New York legislature led to a report issued on March 5, 1787 discussing the principle coppers then in circulation within the state. The report stated there were firstly a few genuine halfpence, secondly a number of Irish halfpence and:

Thirdly. A very great number of pieces in imitation of British half pence, but much lighter, of inferior copper, and badly executed. -- These are generally called by the name Birmingham Coppers, as it is pretty well known that they are made there, and imported in casks, under the name of Hard Ware , or wrought copper.


There is real doubt whether actual "Evasions" ever circulated in America:  Hazfeld and Maris described evasion pieces as having been used in America but Newman has explained no evasion copper has ever been found in excavations at an American site only imitations(counterfeit) of regal coins.

The same goes for Spanish & Dutch coins that were used in N. America, they are also part of its history.

Hence no comedy involved, just confusion :)

Pat
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 08:10:03 PM by constanius »

Pat

Offline Figleaf

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Re: GLORIOVS IER VES please help identify
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2015, 01:01:46 AM »
That coins and tokens can and do circulate outside the area for which they were issued is beyond doubt. It is generally accepted that British tokens that were driven out of circulation or banned in Britain were sent to the colonies and circulated there. That's interesting for students of financial history and one thing.

Another thing is that numismatists, rightly or wrongly, assign a country to coins and tokens. In that scheme of things, it is not important where the coin or token circulated but which area it was made for, independent of where it ended up. This was well expressed by the well-known Canadian numismatist R. W. McLachlan in an article entitled The sou marqué not a Canadian coin (reprinted in "Canadian Tokens and Medals", by A. D. Hoch (editor) - ANA 1968.

Quote
Now, if we were to class every coin that was made current in Canada as Canadian by special ordonnance or proclamation, the list would include with equal show of authority the whole coinage of Great Britain, France, Spain and Portugal issued during the latter part of the eighteenth and the beginning of the nineteenth centuries.

Mind that evasives were not even made current, as the sou marqué was. I agree with McLachlan and maybe also with you, if I have understood you correctly. The Dutch, Spanish and British coins and tokens used in North America are parts of its financial history, but that doesn't make them part of its numismatic inheritance. They remain Dutch, Spanish and British coins and tokens.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Alex Island

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Re: GLORIOVS IER VES please help identify
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2020, 09:08:09 PM »
This topic interested me once, and I managed to find four different tokens, 71 and 81 and 91 years. For 81 years old, there are two options - the head looks to the left and the head looks to the right. There are photographs from auctions if anyone would like to study it. I can show
But ..  ???  still, I can not completely understand - do any of these tokens belong to the Hebrides islands near England? Are these islands (inner Hebrides or Outer Hebrides) related to these tokens?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 09:28:24 PM by Alex Island »
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: GLORIOVS IER VES please help identify
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2020, 09:36:45 PM »
They have nothing to do with the Hebrides. As noted above, that text was designed to fool illiterate people - who would look for patterns of letters, rather than read words - into thinking that it said HIBERNIA, as on the genuine coins.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

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Re: GLORIOVS IER VES please help identify
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2020, 01:33:59 AM »
They have nothing to do with the Hebrides. As noted above, that text was designed to fool illiterate people - who would look for patterns of letters, rather than read words - into thinking that it said HIBERNIA, as on the genuine coins.

Peter
Funny you say that, Peter. When I just glanced at the picture quickly Hibernia is what registered with me too. I think it was the prescence of the harp...harp and Hibernia go togrther for me.

Now I'm worried that I might be illiterate. :)

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: GLORIOVS IER VES please help identify
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2020, 11:47:17 AM »
Nah, it's the wisdom of old age :) and it tells you something about what's on your mind. See this post.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.