UK Penny and Half Penny collection

[gpimper]

I've a small collection of UK Pennies and Half Pennies dating from 1893 to 1949.  I'll start out with my best first...1938 George VI.  https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces669.html 

[gpimper]

George VI 1949 and 1940.  Obverse is the same as the '38.  The only change on the '49-'52 is that the IND:IMP was dropped.  I'd classify both as VF to XF.  https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces7604.html

[FosseWay]

George VI 1949 and 1940.  Obverse is the same as the '38.  I'd classify both as VF to XF.  https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces7604.html

If you look closely at the obverses, you'll see that 1949 is in fact different from 1938/40 (those two are the same as each other). On the coins up to and including 1948, the obverse inscription ends ... IND IMP, short for Indiae Imperator, or Emperor of India. In 1949 this was removed and F D expanded to FIDEI DEF (Fidei Defensor, or Defender of the Faith).

The reason is of course that the British monarch ceased to be emperor of India when India and Pakistan became independent.

But this raises a question that I've never seen a decent answer to. India and Pakistan gained their independence on 15 August 1947, yet the change on UK coinage only took effect in 1949. For all UK coins dated 1948, the king was claiming a title he was no longer entitled to. Some of the Dominions that also used IND IMP or an English equivalent did indeed change the legend in 1948 - South Africa, for example. Why the delay in the UK? Head in the sand ostrich behaviour? If we say it on the coins it must be true? An error? Laziness at the Mint?

[Figleaf]

I can think (= speculate) of two reasons. One is of course bureaucratic inertia. The procedures to make a change with political significance are heavy. Look at <k>'s  many and delightful threads on designs. Committees, approval, proclamations. That all takes much time.

Over and above, British coins were firmly anchored in feudal times and in those days, a title, once acquired, could be used until given up. In the British context, think of the title king of France, which was used from the 100-years war until IIRC queen Anne. There was, therefore an argument for "no change", except that it would have been politically clumsy and hard to explain. Multiply committee and proclamation times by two. Or four. Or eight if it's not really a priority.

Peter

[gpimper]

You are correct.  I missed that!

[FosseWay]

My presumption about the delay in removing IND IMP has always been that it was due to "bureaucratic sclerosis", certainly - I just wondered if there was a more, well, dynamic reason. And I've never seen the question even asked, never mind answered, in standard reference works covering British coinage of that period.

Btw it was worse than that regarding the claim to the throne of France - it persisted on the coinage until the Great Recoinage of 1816.

[FosseWay]

You are correct.  I missed that!

When you get a few years further on, you'll see something similar happen again if you compare the obverses of 1953 and 1954 onwards, where the legend is modified because of the colonial era's changing politics.

[Prosit]

Very nice coins! 

I have quite a lot of these as I attempted to collect them by date. Great Britain is a larger part of my collection than many others.
I think my oldest is awell worn rose farthing 1625-1649. Oldest modern type farthing is 172? Can't tell last digit it is too worn. Oldest 1/2 Penny is 1719 and oldest Penny I have is 1797.

Also have a 1844 1/2 Farthing with a hole in it.

Love those big coppers.

Dale

[gpimper]

Dale, I agree they are fun to collect though I don't have any that old.  I think my oldest is an 1862 Victoria half penny.

[brandm24]

I like nearly all of the old copper UK pennys and halfpennys. The Victorias are particularly appealing to me. I don't have many but I try to get my hands on one once in awhile.

Bruce

[gpimper]

Last George VI...1939 Half Penny.  The reverse is amazing, Sir Francis Drake's Golden Hind.  I've a number of others but this is the nicest.  https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces870.html

[Prosit]

Want to add just a couple images

1825

Dale

[Prosit]

1841

Dale

[gpimper]

That 1825 is nice.  If I were to pick it up at a glance I would think Roman.

[Prosit]

Thanks! 

Best I can tell the 1841 has been cleaned and has re toned some. Both have seen some wear but not too much. The 1825 has some green on the back not visible in the image.

Even though I have collected a lot of UK or British coins, I always had a haphazard approach. Never any condition goal just fill that hole :-)  Have a lot of nice Christmas coins too.

By far the most coins I have came as trades, or gifts and mostly from WoC folks and especially Andy. Thanks Andy I still appreciate them all.

Dale

That 1825 is nice.  If I were to pick it up at a glance I would think Roman.