Collecting British coins

Started by UK Decimal +, October 26, 2009, 05:41:05 PM

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BC Numismatics

Bill,
  That is the designer's initials.

It looks like one of George Kruger-Grey's designs.

Aidan.

UK Decimal +

It could be a 'G', I'll examine it in daylight.

Bill.
Ilford, Essex, near London, England.

People look for problems and complain.   Engineers find solutions but people still complain.

UK Decimal +

UK 3d brass.   Here are the first year (1937) and last year (1967) which show the two designs used.

Size is about 21mm across the flats.   This type of coin was demonetised 31 August 1971.

Bill.
Ilford, Essex, near London, England.

People look for problems and complain.   Engineers find solutions but people still complain.

andyg

Quote from: UK Decimal + on October 26, 2009, 11:25:29 PM
It could be a 'G', I'll examine it in daylight.

Bill.

Coincraft states that it's a 'G' but neglects to mention what it's for ::)

UK Decimal +

Quote from: AJG on October 26, 2009, 11:53:02 PM
Coincraft states that it's a 'G' but neglects to mention what it's for ::)

Looking at an enlargement, it is certainly a 'G' in the centre of the 1936 version.   The 1937 version has 'K·G' in the field below the main design.

Bill.
Ilford, Essex, near London, England.

People look for problems and complain.   Engineers find solutions but people still complain.

andyg

#20
Quote from: UK Decimal + on October 27, 2009, 12:12:07 AM
Looking at an enlargement, it is certainly a 'G' in the centre of the 1936 version.   The 1937 version has 'K·G' in the field below the main design.

Bill.

KG is for George Kruger-Gray the designer, as on the shillings I posted earlier.

UK Decimal +

Anyone have any thoughts on the various 'threepenny bits'?

I used to have an uncanny knack of finding the silver ones on the pavement when I was young, much to the displeasure of my mother as I also used to try to rescue them from under buses.   

The word 'thrift' meant something in those days and it surprises me that the 'Thrift' design was dropped in 1953 in favour of the Crowned Portcullis on the brass version.

But those little silver coins were lovely and owning some again brings back many meories.

Bill.
Ilford, Essex, near London, England.

People look for problems and complain.   Engineers find solutions but people still complain.

tonyclayton

Quote from: africancoins on October 26, 2009, 11:17:53 PM
See (amongst others)...

http://www.sixpenceking.com/

about the 6 Pence of 1952.

I had heard of something if it before.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

This site seems to unavailable now.

Tony

UK Decimal +

Perhaps we might have a further discussion on the 1944 set (illustrated in the initial post to this topic).

The designs are interesting, being:-

2/6 - A Coat of Arms flanked on both sides with the letter G and G-reversed, intertwined, surmounted by a Crown
2/- - Tudor Rose surmounted by a Crown, flanked by a Thistle and Shamrock
1/- England - Lion standing on a large Crown
1/- Scotland - Lion holding Sword and Sceptre flanked by St. Andrew's Cross and a Thistle
6d - GRI (Georgius Rex Imperator) surmounted by a crown.
3d Silver - Shield bearing the Cross of St. George centred on a Tudor Rose
3d Brass - Thrift plant
1d - Britannia seated on a Shield bearing the Union Flag and holding a Trident, and a Lighthouse
½d - The Sailing Ship 'Golden Hind'
¼d - The Wren

Looking at them, the first four clearly show a common theme to which can be added the silver 3d, but the 6d does not have the same amount of heraldry, except at first glance.   The silver 3d of 1942 to 1944 were reportedly struck for use in the West Indies.   The 12-sided 3d in brass (actually nickel-brass, being 79% copper, 20% zinc and 1% nickel) was introduced in 1937 and a few Edward VIII examples exist.   Britannia on the 1d is a British Tradition, which dates back to 1797 with the first copper 'Cartwheel' design although the design changed considerably over the years.   A similar Britannia design had been used on the ½d for many years, but was changed to the 'Golden Hind' in 1937, and the same applies to the ¼d with the Wren being used from 1937.

So, have I got the details right?   Any comments would be appreciated as would information about who designed the various images used.   Hopefully, we can all learn more about these coins.

Bill.
Ilford, Essex, near London, England.

People look for problems and complain.   Engineers find solutions but people still complain.

tonyclayton

Quote from: UK Decimal + on December 04, 2009, 04:42:44 PM

Britannia on the 1d is a British Tradition, which dates back to 1797 with the first copper 'Cartwheel' design although the design changed considerably over the years.


Although the use regular use of Britannia on small copper coins goes back to the reign of Charles II.

Mind you, Britannia first appeared on copper coin in the reign of the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius.

Figleaf

While that is indeed true, you should bear in mind that this is a Roman coin, not an English coin.



It wasn't imitated in Britain, struck in a Roman mint in Britain or used on later Roman coins. It's likely to have been created for propaganda value, to show the emperor's new conquest. It's also not the inspiration for the later motif on English coins, since it was shown that this was an earlier great seal. It's more like a fun coincidence, all the more so because the Roman name Britannia referred to Celts, not the present day mix of Saxons, Normans, Norsemen, Scots, Picts and others, all of whom held the Celts in little esteem. ;)

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

UK Decimal +

That's great, Peter.

Do you think that it would be possible to start a new topic about Britannia on coins?   A copy of your post here would make a good starting point.

What other countries have used the image?   There are so many questions that come to mind.   You also suggest that 'commemoratives' are not a new idea!   I wonder, were they sold at above 'face value'?   What would that face value be?

Bill.
Ilford, Essex, near London, England.

People look for problems and complain.   Engineers find solutions but people still complain.

Figleaf

This was not a commemorative coin. The idea of a commemorative coin had been invented centuries ago by the city of Olympia, which used them to finance the games, but there are few Roman commemoratives (though you could consider most early Roman gold coins as commemoratives or medals if you wish).

The Romans used their coins to give emperors legitimacy, either by spelling out their ancestry or by displaying their Great Deeds. The Britannia coin is doing the latter. Its message is "Hey, we got a great emperor; he just added another barbaric land to our empire. Three cheers for Tony P." Most other Roman coins have similar uplifting messages about whoever had them issued.

The message is addressed to the citizens of the empire and the Senate in particular, not the Britons. They were considered an inferior race, as clearly shown by Gaius Suetonius Paulinus, who thought it wise to have queen Boudicca of the Iceni whipped while he raped her daughters before her eyes. Even Nero thought Suetonius Paulinus was counterproductive.

The idea of a personification of a country or region is pretty widespread. Hispania, Germania, Helvetia, Marianne, the virgin of Holland and Miss Liberty come to mind without searching and there's a much longer list here. There is a large number of countries that have used a woman or her head as personification on their coins, whether seated, standing, walking or all three. This may be the most used and worn symbol on coins after heraldry, but even before maps.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

translateltd

Quote from: Figleaf on December 06, 2009, 05:25:10 PM
While that is indeed true, you should bear in mind that this is a Roman coin, not an English coin.

It wasn't imitated in Britain, struck in a Roman mint in Britain or used on later Roman coins. It's likely to have been created for propaganda value, to show the emperor's new conquest. It's also not the inspiration for the later motif on English coins, since it was shown that this was an earlier great seal. It's more like a fun coincidence, all the more so because the Roman name Britannia referred to Celts, not the present day mix of Saxons, Normans, Norsemen, Scots, Picts and others, all of whom held the Celts in little esteem. ;)

Peter

This seated type was also found on Bactrian and other coins of the Greek States much earlier than the Roman designs - it was only when the Romans used it with the BRITANNIA legend that it captured (forgive the pun) someone's imagination about 1600 years later for re-use on English coins.

Here's an example on a gold stater (I know it's a forgery but it's not a bad one):