Jahangir. Dam, Mint: Ahmedabad AH 1025/11, Month Di - Plate specimen SACPM Rare.

[abhinumis]

Hi Guys,
It has been a long time since I posted and mainly the reason why I hadn't posted here was lack of discussion or even acknowledgement of good and rare coin.That had demotivated me. However, recently I met a young collector, who I did not know but he remembers every post on mine on WOC and knows me as Abhinumis. It felt nice and hence I post a rare coin again.

Ahmedabad mint was a perennial mint for mughals under Akbar and under Jahangir was active for first 5-6 years of his reign. However, post that period of 5-6 years the copper coins are rare in my opinion. As such after Noor Jahan became the indirect controlling authority, coppers almost disappear across all mints except bairata. Hence, this coin is that extra special.
Jahangir Ahmedabad dam, 1025AH/Ry11.
Ex-William Sprengler collection.
Obverse- Jahangir shahi 1025AH/Ry 11
Reverse- Falus Ahmedabad, ilahi month Di.

[Saikat]

Hi,
This is a very nice piece. Thanks for posting.
Interestingly, in the heavy dam I shown [urlhttp://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,36751.0.html]here[/url], the month is not present. I wonder why the month was reintroduced after few years.
Ofcourse mine is rawani and yours is jahangiri. That might be the differentiator.
Thanks,
Saikat

[abhinumis]

Interestingly Saikat, I have a half dam too. I'm sure by the general rarity of this piece that the coins were not minted for a long time.

[asm]

It has been a long time since I posted and mainly the reason why I hadn't posted here was lack of discussion or even acknowledgement of good and rare coin.That had demotivated me. However, recently I met a young collector, who I did not know but he remembers every post on mine on WOC and knows me as Abhinumis. It felt nice and hence I post a rare coin again.

Good to see you back again. Some of the coins you post are exceedingly nice and rare. However, as a senior collector, you post coins fully attributed and hence leave not much scope for discussions. Well, as a senior, I believe that we owe it to the new collectors (as we were hand held by seniors when we were struggling) to show them the way forward and not expect comments like nice, good, rare - that is what Fb is for. Out here, the forum is a place for giving and taking knowledge - not likes. Sorry if I sound harsh but I think you will understand what i am saying. So, I hope you come visiting every day with help- for the juniors and also keep posting some (hopefully all) of your gems.

Ahmedabad mint was a perennial mint for mughals under Akbar and under Jahangir was active for first 5-6 years of his reign. However, post that period of 5-6 years the copper coins are rare in my opinion. As such after Noor Jahan became the indirect controlling authority, coppers almost disappear across all mints except bairata. Hence, this coin is that extra special.

I have a view that any mint that minted Silver, would surely have minted coppers. The currency for use by the common man can not be missed. However, copper may not have been hoarded (to be discovered now!!!!) like silvers or gold. Being a softer metal and faster circulation, the rate of wear would be substantially higher. So the survival rate of these coins would be lower. It is true that even a paisa / dam etc was a coin of a fairly high value and I have read in some books that bitter almonds and cowries were used in daily transactions till the early 1800's. So the copper coins would have had limited use. However, payment of army etc was in coppers and it is impossible that they were not regularly minted because earlier coins were available. A coin was the only sign of the rulers authority (there were no advertising signboards etc then) to tell the common man who the ruler was. So no ruler would avoid issuing coins. Of course, rupees would have been the first to be issued and then the fractions and coppers and hence, in the case of the really short lived emperors, it is possible that the regime changed before the first coppers left the mint ........ and hence they were not circulated but melted down.
Another factor to be considered is that copper coins of the earlier regimes were recalled and new ones issued - leaving less of old coins in circulation - specially for the main mints.
The discovery of coins of some rulers and mints regularly is a pointer to justify my hypothesis - but I have no proof (in absence of any records).
Noor Jahan's case is a bit different. It is recorded that Shah Jahan recalled all coins issued in her name and threatened to kill any person who was found with even a single coin. So the poor class and the soldiers would have turned in the coins (it is impossible that the army was not paid for such a long time) but some silvers and gold, which may have been hoarded away by the traders / big business did not go back - and are now (just about rarely) found.

Amit

[asm]

All Jahangir copper coins of Ahmedabad seems were very short run issues. The above coin is 1025 / 11 month Di. My coin dated a few months later - AH 1026 / 11 Month: Bahman) shows a variation in the way the mint name Ahmedabad is written - with an elongated Ahmed.

Amit

PS: my coin is not is pristine condition.

[Figleaf]

I have a view that any mint that minted Silver, would surely have minted coppers. The currency for use by the common man can not be missed.

Very interesting remark. I think that it is in general more or less correct, but that you will find exceptions. For instance, some copper mints are known to be close to copper mines. This makes sense, as the transport cost of copper is in relative terms the highest. If there is demand for copper in the mining area, it would save money to distribute it right there, rather than ship raw metal for minting and back again as coins for distribution. That also means that the nearest mint may have minted no copper at all, due to the cost structure of the nearby specialised copper mint. Take into account that there is an Asian tradition to separate copper and silver minting. Two examples: in colonial times in the Netherlands Indies, copper emergency coins were struck in Chinese workshops. Silver was struck in the Batavia and Surabaya mints. In Japan, there were separate mints for copper, silver and gold.

Turning the hypothesis around (if it struck copper it must have struck silver) you run into camp mints. Army expenditure was such that running expense (armour and weapon repairs, food, drink and firewood, making siege ladders etc.) was likely in copper, while the payment of the soldiers and purchase of horses was more likely in silver (maybe gold for top officers). Army cash chest have been found. They typically contain mostly silver and some gold only. This is an indication that camp mints would typically have made copper coins. As soldiers' loot would have contained much copper (pots and pans) and dragging worn cannons along is useless, a camp mint would have served to transform useless copper stuff into useful copper coin, not to mention making it possible for soldiers to purchase goods and "services" from the army train, which would be good for morale.

That said, if you assemble equipment and knowledge in a mint, it can be used for any mint metal. Therefore, special circumstances such as transport cost versus geography and war would have been an exception, rather than the rule.

Peter

[Coinsforever]

Good to see you back again. Some of the coins you post are exceedingly nice and rare. However, as a senior collector, you post coins fully attributed and hence leave not much scope for discussions. Well, as a senior, I believe that we owe it to the new collectors (as we were hand held by seniors when we were struggling) to show them the way forward and not expect comments like nice, good, rare - that is what Fb is for. Out here, the forum is a place for giving and taking knowledge - not likes. Sorry if I sound harsh but I think you will understand what i am saying. So, I hope you come visiting every day with help- for the juniors and also keep posting some (hopefully all) of your gems.
I have a view that any mint that minted Silver, would surely have minted coppers. The currency for use by the common man can not be missed. However, copper may not have been hoarded (to be discovered now!!!!) like silvers or gold. Being a softer metal and faster circulation, the rate of wear would be substantially higher. So the survival rate of these coins would be lower. It is true that even a paisa / dam etc was a coin of a fairly high value and I have read in some books that bitter almonds and cowries were used in daily transactions till the early 1800's. So the copper coins would have had limited use. However, payment of army etc was in coppers and it is impossible that they were not regularly minted because earlier coins were available. A coin was the only sign of the rulers authority (there were no advertising signboards etc then) to tell the common man who the ruler was. So no ruler would avoid issuing coins. Of course, rupees would have been the first to be issued and then the fractions and coppers and hence, in the case of the really short lived emperors, it is possible that the regime changed before the first coppers left the mint ........ and hence they were not circulated but melted down.
Another factor to be considered is that copper coins of the earlier regimes were recalled and new ones issued - leaving less of old coins in circulation - specially for the main mints.
The discovery of coins of some rulers and mints regularly is a pointer to justify my hypothesis - but I have no proof (in absence of any records).
Noor Jahan's case is a bit different. It is recorded that Shah Jahan recalled all coins issued in her name and threatened to kill any person who was found with even a single coin. So the poor class and the soldiers would have turned in the coins (it is impossible that the army was not paid for such a long time) but some silvers and gold, which may have been hoarded away by the traders / big business did not go back - and are now (just about rarely) found.

Amit

Abhishek I fully agree with Amitji you have been posting with almost all data based on your pre research of most of the coins posted by you here at WOC.
But believe me  it is like ready reconker for posterity .
I learned everything from WOC and data available here is valuable Facebook is another platform where display of coins gets immediate response but no one cares to study it further .
Most of the articles I had shared in past 2 years at various coins society magazines WOC  data has been referred by me Facebook is mixture of information unlike zeno also less comments and visitors but data bank is an exceptional there for any Mughal coins collectors.
Cheers