Author Topic: Aspers and akces  (Read 1163 times)

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Offline Levantiner

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Aspers and akces
« on: September 05, 2015, 07:40:35 AM »
Asper = Acke?

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Aspers and akces
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2015, 10:32:40 AM »
Almost. The original asper is a 13th century Byzantine coin, imitating the Western European denier. The original akce was introduced a century later, imitating the asper from Trebizond. Both names refer to the "whitish" colour of the doubtful silver, but one in Greek, the other in Turkish.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Manzikert

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Re: Aspers and akces
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2015, 10:37:08 AM »
[Peter did it again :)]

Asper comes from the Byzantine aspron, via Trebizond. The akche in the 1440's was about 1.2 gm, so at this time the asper looks more like a half akche, but is actually in a different monetary system.

Alan

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Aspers and akces
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2015, 10:44:22 AM »
We're a great team, Manzikert ;) 8)

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline EWC

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Re: Aspers and akces
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2015, 10:55:26 AM »
I always assumed these were really dirhems deriving from the Golden horde standard - and that the Ottoman akche ultimately derived from the double dirhems of the Ilkhanids.  Am I wrong on this?

Its easy believe that they were called Aspers, Akche or Dirhems rather indiscriminately at the time of use - since what they were called and what they actually were technically are not necessarily the same thing

Offline Levantiner

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Re: Aspers and akces
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2015, 11:29:33 AM »
I asked as in some  early 20th century literature Acke are called aspers

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Aspers and akces
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2015, 08:30:31 PM »
I always assumed these were really dirhems deriving from the Golden horde standard - and that the Ottoman akche ultimately derived from the double dirhems of the Ilkhanids.  Am I wrong on this?

My source on timeline and etymology: Dictionary of coin names by Adrian Room, ISBN 0710206461.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Levantiner

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Re: Aspers and akces
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2015, 07:11:48 AM »
Seems that Asper is one of those terms that has been used very loosely.

 Freys "Dictionary of Numismatic Names"   (1917) doesn't include Acke  but includes Asper,   

Quote
A billon coin of the value of one-third of a para formerly current in Turkey and Asia Minor.............................The name is also given to to a silver coin of Rhodes in the fourteenth century and later...............in 1677 it was coined in the Republic of Genoa for levantine trade

Offline EWC

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Re: Aspers and akces
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2015, 01:00:00 PM »
My source on timeline and etymology: Dictionary of coin names by Adrian Room, ISBN 0710206461.
Thanks Peter.  Looking at Room's CV I am not convinced he is going to be good on technical numismatics - indeed, I wonder if he has rooted his conclusions in 15th century text at all?  Is he just compliing other peoples 19th and 20th century whims?

That the Ottoman akche is ultimately a weight reduced Ilkhanid double dirhem is an idea I got from Steve Album - private converstion back in the 1980's.  Looking quickly through his Checklist edition  III I see he mentions this matter in connection with Eretnid silver (pp 250-51).

That the Genoa AR's are to the Golden Horde dirhem standard just seems the best bet on the basis of the coins themselves - see Mitch Islamic (p. 320).  MM  seems to agree and calls them "dirhem" and  "denga"

But this is not a matter I investigated much, so would welcome comment.