Pseudo coins

[BC Numismatics]

Bill,
  The Krugerrand is a classic case of a medal-coin,as the Krugerrand is not a currency denomination,but only a medal-coin denomination.The same goes for Ghana's Sika-denominated medal-coins.

Aidan.

[UK Decimal +]

Aidan,

I am only asking for what you would put as a dictionary definition of 'medal-coins'.   

Your giving examples of coins that some members are not conversant with is only confusing the issue.

Bill.

[africancoins]

(4 other replies, am I told, were posted while I wrote it..  I will not check it for anything that may need to be changed because of that.)

That link goes to a page titled "Non-circulating legal tender"...

>>>>QUOTE
Non-circulating legal tender (NCLT) is a coin-like object that cannot be used or is not used for payments, so they are not money. They are minted for sale to collectors only. They are also called pseudo coin or medal-coin. Advanced collectors typically try to avoid buying NCLT, so that buyers are often beginning or superficial collectors. For this reason, here is only a shallow secondary market for NCLT, so that it can often be sold only at melt value. Therefore, issuers normally try to hide the status of NCLT by intensive marketing, with terms like "legal tender", "limited mintage", "demanded by collectors" or even "investment", stressing precious metal content and luxury execution.

The issuers sell NCLT well above its nominal value, so that it cannot circulate. NCLT may be issued for non-existing countries, non-sovereign entities or uninhabited islands (fantasy pieces). They may have impractical or anachronistic denominations, they may be issued only as proofs, they may be colourized or in an anachronistic coin metal, such as silver or gold.

Issuers of NCLT may be private coiners, such as Franklin Mint, Italcambio, New Zealand Mint, The London Mint Office, The Commonwealth Mint and Pobjoy Mint, or they may be government or privatized national mints, such as those of Australia, Austria, Canada, China, Cuba and France.
<<<<END-QUOTE

The above puts fantasy issues as a sub-set of NCLT but fantasy issues are not legal tender so the "LT" is not relevant.

Advanced collectors of coins of just one country e.g. the UK or the U.S.A. are quite likely to have many coin types that were not intended for normal circulation. Why not use the term that such as the British Royal Mint uses "Collector Coins" - simple. Though contrary to the Wikipedia entry which includes "They are minted for sale to collectors only." many NCLT particularly such as proof of BU year sets are sold to people who will give them to a friend or relative as a gift - many of these therefore end up with normal members of the public who will never be coin collectors.

The last paragraph from the quote page talks as though mints private or government are the ISSUERS of all NCLT around the world. Wrong.

Could Aidan answer Bill's question "Please give your precise definition of 'medal-coin'." in his own words.

Has anyone ever seen Aidan's term used in any recent numismatic or general PRINTED publication ? (1983, of course, been far from what could be considered as "recent" in this context.)

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

[Figleaf]

Phil, I think you are mixing two issues. Maybe the central point is that you are trying to attach status by date, rather than by type.

The first one is proof strikes of circulation coins. I think this is a question of taste. I have an intense dislike of proofs, so I'll gladly trade the few I have (mostly Russian) for circulation coins of the same type. I seem not to be the only one. Many of Franklin Mint proofs are actually cheaper than their non-proof equivalents. The question of whether these proofs are or are not NCLT is moot, since they can be avoided in most cases. By the same token, there are people who like proofs. That's fine, of course. Who am I to tell others what to like? The status of the circulation coin does not change because there are proof strikes of the coin available.

The issue with the proofs is not too different from the unc circulation coin. As the grade indicates, unc's have not circulated. Does that mean they are not money? I don't think so, because they too have lots of nephews and nieces that did circulate. In other words, the coin in my collection is a representation of what circulated, not more. I think a proof would not be a good representation and I don't ask anyone to agree with me or not. I even have a slight preference for a VF over an UNC coin for exactly the same reason.

Quite another thing is a proof-only issue. They cannot possibly be coins, so they are by definition pseudo coins. I don't want them in my collection (I have some anyway, gifts of kind friends and family I want to spare the truth about the status of these pieces). Note that they are not pseudo coins because they are proofs, they are pseudo coins because they are unable to circulate. The parallel here is not with unc coins but with "sets only" coins. A coin available only isn a set by definition did not circulate (even if some people broke up the set, the exception confirms the rule), so I don't want it.

For pretty obvious reasons, I think the Wiki page defines NCLT quite well.

Peter

[andyg]

As the grade indicates, unc's have not circulated. Does that mean they are not money? I don't think so, because they too have lots of nephews and nieces that did circulate. In other words, the coin in my collection is a representation of what circulated, not more. I think a proof would not be a good representation and I don't ask anyone to agree with me or not. I even have a slight preference for a VF over an UNC coin for exactly the same reason.

UK £5 coins blur the boundaries even more, prior to 2006 they were avaliable at the Post Office for £5, anyone wanting one simply exchanged £5 for £5.  They were then free to spend their £5 coin anywhere they wished, many were spent and I received some in change - but they were not issued specifically to be spent.  However since 2007 they have only been available from the Royal Mint Website still at £5 so they disappeared from circulation, This year you have to buy them for £5 plus postage from the same website, so a £5 coin now costs more than £5 to purchase, therefore I firmly believe we've now crossed the line into NCLT............

[Figleaf]

I would agree. A similar situation happened in Malta. When the first silver coins after independence came out, I sent payment in Maltese banknotes for face value and got the coin. At one point, they got tired of the likes of me, increased the price and let it be known that Maltese currency was not accepted. Before that point, I gave Maltese silver the benefit of doubt. Afterwards, I considered them pseudo coins and stopped buying them.

Peter

[BC Numismatics]

I would agree. A similar situation happened in Malta. When the first silver coins after independence came out, I sent payment in Maltese banknotes for face value and got the coin. At one point, they got tired of the likes of me, increased the price and let it be known that Maltese currency was not accepted. Before that point, I gave Maltese silver the benefit of doubt. Afterwards, I considered them pseudo coins and stopped buying them.

Peter

Peter,
  How did you manage to get Maltese banknotes for spending? I have trouble finding Maltese banknotes for my own collection.

I do have a few of the Maltese silver 1,2,& 4 Pounds in my collection.I had always wondered which ones were issued at their face value.

The Maltese 1981 F.A.O. World Food Day commemorative 2 Pounds is one that eludes me.

I did get the small silver 1 Pound dated 1979,which I still have.

Aidan.

[Bimat]

A medal coin is exactly same as a NCLT,(I'm guessing this from what Aidan has said about them so far)but Aidan prefers the word 'medal coin' rather than using NCLT.I hate the word medal coin because a medal can not be a coin and vice versa.

Aditya

[translateltd]

I hate the word medal coin because a medal can not be a coin and vice versa.

Aditya

That, unfortunately, is a matter of opinion these days.  While everyone's entitled to their own views, I would contend (see comments along similar lines here:

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,4462.msg27126.html#msg27126

and also here:

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,1849.msg8777.html#msg8777 )

that much NCLT actually comes closer to fulfilling the role of a commemorative medal or medallion than of a coin.  If it's possible to have a mid-point between coins and commemorative medals, NCLT would be it.

I notice that Figleaf acknowledges "denomination-bearing medal" and "medal coin" in his glossary of terms under "pseudo coin" here:

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,686.msg2748.html#msg2748

[BC Numismatics]

Aditya,
  The term 'Medal-coin' is perfectly legitimate,as it states clearly what it is.The term 'N.C.L.T.' is very ambiguous to inexperienced collectors.

Aidan.

[a3v1]

The term 'Medal-coin' is perfectly legitimate,as it states clearly what it is.The term 'N.C.L.T.' is very ambiguous to inexperienced collectors.

Aidan, As you've been told before time and again, "medal-coin" is a contradiction in terms as a coin is not a medal and a medal is not a coin.
Now, talking about something that is really ambiguous to inexperienced collectors .... the term "medal-coin" is !!!
Regards,
a3v1

[BC Numismatics]

Rob,
  You've also been told time & time again that a coin is intended for circulation as money,& that a medal-coin isn't intended for circulation.

There's nothing ambiguous in saying that,is there?

Aidan.

[UK Decimal +]

It seems that the situation here is still unclear.

For clarity, I suggest that the following terms should be used:

Proof
Set Proof (if only issued as part of a set, never singly)
Proof Only (can only be applied with hindsight)

BU
Set BU (if only issued as part of a set, never singly)
BU Only (can only be applied with hindsight)

Circ (any coin issued into normal circulation)

Internal Circ (a design of a wide-area currency which is valid only in the country of issue such as some Commemorative Euros)

Medallion (anything that is not a coin although it might have an apparent face value shown on it)

Medal (an award, such as for bravery or some achievement)

I think that the meanings of these should be clear to everyone.   No doubt I've omitted some but these can be added to the list; anyone making an addition should be able to explain what it means.

Comments?   Suggestions?   Objections?

Bill.

[Figleaf]

How did you manage to get Maltese banknotes for spending? I have trouble finding Maltese banknotes for my own collection.

I ordered them from a bank. It took them a few days and I didn't get unc notes...

Peter

[a3v1]

You've also been told time & time again that a coin is intended for circulation as money,& that a medal-coin isn't intended for circulation.
There's nothing ambiguous in saying that,is there?

Yes, I've been told; so I know what you are trying to express.
But a vast majority of coin collectors have not been told, and a contradictory term as "medal-coin" will be utterly confusing to all of them. Better use NCLT and, in some cases, even NCNLT. That will be clear to all once the abbreviations are explained to them.
Regards,
a3v1