Author Topic: Once you think you know all bull & horseman jitals, you find a new one.  (Read 443 times)

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Offline THCoins

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After focussing the last 5 years on the Bull and Horseman Jitals you might think i have seen most types. But no, there still are gaps and sometimes i encounter specimen which i have difficulty to place.

The coin below does not look really special. But it is for two reasons. Firstly, stylistically it resembles the Tye#34 jitals (second photo). However, the style is both more abstracted and more refined. I can not decide whether this might be an earlier or a later derivative.
Secondly, the enigma is in the details. The Tye#34 Jitals show the "Bhi" character over the back of the horse. On the first coin below there is a fragment of a character which can't be "Bhi". In addition there is a trace of another character in front of the horseman. On first sight these two fragments seem to fit best with "Ha | Ma". Problem is, this combination is unknown.
So the only thing i have to do now is wait and look possibly for months to see if i can spot an additional one with more text visible. Well, keeps me of the streets..  :-\

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Once you think you know all bull & horseman jitals, you find a new one.
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2020, 09:11:37 PM »
Thank you for posting this here, TH. Unfortunately, the best person to ask for advice in this group is you. Meanwhile, this is a great reminder of the fun you can have by going off the beaten track. People who come for advice actually listen to you. You may just discover things, not only for yourself, but for science!

Keep having fun, TH. There's plenty more out there and it sure beats TV and YouTube combined.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline THCoins

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The startpost of this thread was just a short "Hey this looks a bit different" report. When one dives deeply into a coin category there always is a risk that you declare a specimen as a new type, while it is just a small variation on an existing type.
The startpost coin however, prompted me to do some more research. And i found some additional evidence that this should indeed be separated from the Tye#34 types as a new type.
Just restating: The is a slightly different shape of the horseman, lacking the lower backwards protruding spike from his backside. Also, the "Bhi" behind the horseman seems lacking.
Problem with these specimen is that always just a small portion of the legend is on flan. So one needs a larger number of coins to be able to read the entire legend. Here the British Museum comes to the rescue. In the Masson collection of the BM are a large number of crude later Jitals. Some with clear similarities to my startpost coin.

https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_IOLC-5591
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_IOLC-5600
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_IOLC-5648
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_IOLC-6838
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_IOLC-5603

Browsing through these it is possible to step through the entire legend of the coin. This presents the final proof i was looking for. This type has a combination of the "Samanta Deva" legend on the bull's side and the "Sri Hamira" on the horseman's side. Likely this is a later imitative hybrid produced somewhere in the Pakistan/Afghanistan region in the late 12th or beginning 13th century AD, distinctly different from the Tye#31/34 type.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 01:49:11 PM by THCoins »

Offline Figleaf

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Congratulations on successful research, TH. I wish there was always a happy end to research, so it's all the more encouraging to read about a case where patience and plowing through loads of files actually paid off.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Palomares

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After focussing the last 5 years on the Bull and Horseman Jitals you might think i have seen most types. But no, there still are gaps and sometimes i encounter specimen which i have difficulty to place.

The coin below does not look really special. But it is for two reasons. Firstly, stylistically it resembles the Tye#34 jitals (second photo). However, the style is both more abstracted and more refined. I can not decide whether this might be an earlier or a later derivative.
Secondly, the enigma is in the details. The Tye#34 Jitals show the "Bhi" character over the back of the horse. On the first coin below there is a fragment of a character which can't be "Bhi". In addition there is a trace of another character in front of the horseman. On first sight these two fragments seem to fit best with "Ha | Ma". Problem is, this combination is unknown.
So the only thing i have to do now is wait and look possibly for months to see if i can spot an additional one with more text visible. Well, keeps me of the streets..  :-\

Thcoins yes I also see it differently. Regarding reading, it is difficult for me to see HA-Ma. I'm hoping you have a new photography program.
I would read KA-MA or just Ka, to the right of the hoserman, it can be part of the horse design.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 08:57:55 PM by Palomares »

Offline Palomares

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The startpost of this thread was just a short "Hey this looks a bit different" report. When one dives deeply into a coin category there always is a risk that you declare a specimen as a new type, while it is just a small variation on an existing type.
The startpost coin however, prompted me to do some more research. And i found some additional evidence that this should indeed be separated from the Tye#34 types as a new type.
Just restating: The is a slightly different shape of the horseman, lacking the lower backwards protruding spike from his backside. Also, the "Bhi" behind the horseman seems lacking.
Problem with these specimen is that always just a small portion of the legend is on flan. So one needs a larger number of coins to be able to read the entire legend. Here the British Museum comes to the rescue. In the Masson collection of the BM are a large number of crude later Jitals. Some with clear similarities to my startpost coin.

https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_IOLC-5591
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_IOLC-5600
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_IOLC-5648
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_IOLC-6838
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_IOLC-5603

Browsing through these it is possible to step through the entire legend of the coin. This presents the final proof i was looking for. This type has a combination of the "Samanta Deva" legend on the bull's side and the "Sri Hamira" on the horseman's side. Likely this is a later imitative hybrid produced somewhere in the Pakistan/Afghanistan region in the late 12th or beginning 13th century AD, distinctly different from the Tye#31/34 type.

Yes, I agree with you. I also have these coins saved as new varieties (I have some more).
These varieties are unlisted in any of my books :like:

Offline THCoins

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Thanks Palomares !
It's just small steps ahead every time. But i hope that the recognition also of these later types may help us in furhter understanding both the history and the monetary networks of the period.

Offline Palomares

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Let me explain Anthony, sometimes the translator plays tricks, I see traces of an aksara as you can see in the photo that I send, if it is true, this could be part of the aksara and consequently be 'K'. There is also the possibility that this stroke is part of a first Aksara. Like for example 'sri', may be Sri Ha Ma.
In the aksara on the hoserman's right, something similar happens to me, I see the feather of the horse's head that can be part of the aksara.

Offline THCoins

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Thanks Palomares.
Since i changed computers i could not re-install my favorite drawing program i used to make overlays. So a simple one in Paint.
This is how i envision the legend;

Offline Palomares

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 :applause: :applause: :like: