Transportation cards

[Pabitra]

Transport or Metro cards bear similar relation to tokens as Currency notes bear to coins.
I do not understand as to why, the cards are not studies as seriously as tokens?
They too usually are RFID chip embedded, as are the tokens.


Here is what I got in Stockholm, Sweden

[chrisild]

Possibly for the same reason why quite a few collectors are interested in payphone "coins" but not in phone cards. May well be that some collect public transport cards, of course.

Also keep in mind that many (?) of these cards are used for multiple rides. Attached is image of my Dutch public transport card; as they charged a fee for the card itself, i do not plan to give it away before July 2016.

Christian

[Pabitra]

Here is Mumbai metro.

Delhi metro ( old and New ) were posted under that thread

[Figleaf]

I actively dislike these cards. For one, it is very easy not to do a correct swipe at the end of the ride or to forget it and you usually get no sympathy if that happens, let alone help. For another, the system is used to follow your movements. Anyway, for me, the equivalent of these cards are not coins or notes, but debit cards. Not an area I am interested in.

Peter

[FosseWay]

Agree with Peter that these are not the equivalent of banknotes, as they are loadable with credit rather than being directly exchanged for services.

This värdekvitto from the Swedish town of Luleå is more like a token banknote.

As to the usability or desirability of loadable smart cards in public transport:

For local residents they are by far the least faffy means of paying for public transport short of financing the whole system through general taxation and having PT that is free at the point of use. System problems, such as requiring users to show cards multiple times on the same journey or press complicated combinations of buttons to get the right price are the fault of the individual systems, not the concept of a chargeable card in itself. As to faults with the cards and/or the readers - you will never get rid of these altogether and the trick is to have a usable and reasonably forgiving/trusting system for refunding overpayments.

I wouldn't take seriously the idea that these cards can be used to follow your movements in any meaningful way. For a start, most such systems are completely anonymous - in other words you can get a card and load it with credit without anyone knowing who you are or which card you have. Generally you have to actively register your card for it to be trackable. There are notable advantages to doing that: mine is registered as I have a year's worth of transport on there and would want it refunded if I lost the card or buggered it up with radiation (I've never done the former but have done the latter). You can also get refunds for wrong debits if the card is registered.

Even if you register your card, it will only be trackable when you show it to the reader. If the CIA/KGB/Säpo/whoever is interested in my movements, they will know that I get on the same bus at the same stop every morning. They have no idea where I get off, or what other transport I may use once I'm in town (there is no requirement to show season tickets on routes that are wholly within the validity of that season ticket, which in my cases means all trams and most inner city buses but not the express bus out to where I live). Even if they did track me further, they would only come to the incredible discovery that each day I go to work and then come home again...

If you're worried about surveillance you should be more exercised about the prevalence of CCTV when you're walking around and ANPR (coupled with road toll information in relevant countries) when driving.

These smart card systems do however have a significant drawback in practice, even though this again isn't an inherent fault of the system but of the humans running it. It can be difficult as a visitor to find out how to get a card, what the right card for your purpose is, and how to use it. This is bad enough in your own country (I've never got to grips with Stockholm's system for example) and even worse if you're abroad and don't speak the local language. The problems arise when there is no alternative method of buying tickets or (as in London) where there is an alternative but it costs hugely more than using the Oyster card.

[Bimat]

Similar ATVM cards are available for Suburban local trains in Mumbai. (Can't be used at Metro stations)

Aditya

[Figleaf]

I wouldn't take seriously the idea that these cards can be used to follow your movements in any meaningful way.

In 2004, London police made 7 requests for Oyster card information. In 2006, the number was 436, in 2008 it was 6074 and in 2010 6576. Later stats are not available. Very small, in view of the total number of trips, but you can see where the trend is going.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-11945774

Peter

[FosseWay]

There is a difference between the police wanting to know, and being able to find out, where you were at a particular time, and actively tracking someone as they go about their life. The only sure-fire way of doing the latter is to use the tried and tested Cold War technique of actually following them. Other less reliable methods, but still more effective than looking at Oyster movements, are planting some kind of tracking device on the subject, or as said using CCTV and ANPR.

And police have used electronic transactions and cash withdrawals for decades to pinpoint people's locations at a point in time without a sudden rush by the general public to avoid using bank cards.

[chrisild]

As long as passengers have a choice ... My Dutch card for example is prepaid and anonymous; there is a "personalized" type as well. In Germany I use a smartphone app which works in many (but not all) cities; the phone and "the system" then know my position at the time when I purchase the ticket. Unlike the Dutch card, there is no "checkout" when I get off the subway, bus, etc.  Less error prone, but this also means that, when using the German app, you have to know in advance what kind of ticket you buy.

As for the collectibility question, what comes closest to metal tokens, I think, is those tourist passes. Many are paper cards, some are plastic, they are prepaid, cannot be recharged, and they simply expire X hours after the first use. But I don't collect them ...

Christian

[Pabitra]

as they charged a fee for the card itself, i do not plan to give it away before July 2016.

In most places, the cost of card or security/ advance is charged apart from amount to be credited.
The same is refundable.
In Singapore, the security is charges for tokens too and one can get the refund from a refunding machine after the journey is over.
In your case, it appears that the card is depreciated at a fixed rate and can not be charged after the period. I am sure, if you are offered more than the residual value by a collector, you will happily part with it.

it is very easy not to do a correct swipe at the end of the ride or to forget it and you usually get no sympathy

They are chip based RFID cards and not magnetic strip cards. They are not swiped but just brought very near. Hopefully, these shall soon be replaced with active electronic circuit devices like iPhone 6 or AppleWatch.

the system is used to follow your movements.

If you're worried about surveillance you should be more exercised about the prevalence of CCTV when you're walking around and ANPR (coupled with road toll information in relevant countries) when driving.

In Germany I use a smartphone app which works in many (but not all) cities; the phone and "the system" then know my position at the time when I purchase the ticket.

Oh, How 20th Century thinking.
The easiest tracking device is your own mobile phone.
You are tracked by the mobile exchange as you move from one cell to another.
At any point, your cell location is know in your home exchange as the exchange where you are present, keeps informing your home exchange where to send a call meant for you.
Also, it must check that you are entitled to make a call or not based on whether you are prepaid customer or post paid.
Authorised Government agencies are permitted to pick this data from phone providers and can practically track you on large map display in real time mode.
The size of cell in large towns is as small as 500 meters and that defines the accuracy of your position.

Even if you have not registered your phone, you are traceable as a number and link to you as a person is established by your outgoing or incoming calls.
If you have received calls from you wife and your children, then you are "you" with high degree of probability.

Osama bin Laden was tracked by this method.

Don't tell anyone that I told you this 

[chrisild]

Hopefully, these shall soon be replaced with active electronic circuit devices like iPhone 6 or AppleWatch.

Hmm, NFC for example has been around for a while; quite a few Android devices use that technology. It's just that currently I have no use for it.

The easiest tracking device is your own mobile phone.

True. The point is, who gets my data? Is it just the cell phone company which, in some cases specified by law, has to provide location/usage information to "my" local government? Or is it some company in some other country which makes its money by collecting as much information about me (granted, aggregated info) as possible? Maybe one that changes its privacy settings all the time? Or some foreign surveillance authority that is basically not liable to anyone? In other words, it does make sense to think about what devices, apps, etc. I want to use.

But since we talk about cards being replaced by phone functions/apps, I think it is even more obvious why many people do not collect such transportation cards. Just introduced, and already on the way out.

Christian

[FosseWay]

Oh, How 20th Century thinking.
The easiest tracking device is your own mobile phone.
You are tracked by the mobile exchange as you move from one cell to another.

[/quote]

Easiest possibly, but as I said before, not the most reliable. For a start, you can have a PAYG mobile. I do. Unlike my transport season ticket, I see no reason to register my phone as if I lose it I'm unlikely to go to the bother of reclaiming the c. 50 kronor in call credit on there if I lose it. The Watchers need first to associate that phone with me before tracking it is of any use to them.

Then there is the unavoidable fact that mobiles can be deliberately or otherwise left at home/work/wherever or lent to other people. The presence of a mobile at a given location would not in the absence of other corroborating evidence be enough in a court to prove beyond reasonable doubt that its owner was also there.

As I said before, the only surefire way of tracking someone is by physically following them or, in places with enough cameras, using CCTV. And the more someone wants to avoid being followed because they're up to no good, the more they will try to confuse the system by getting their moblle to register somewhere they're not.

[JoeYuk]

Very interesting topic.  On my cell phone I have the option to only allow gps location if I dial 911 in a emergency.  We have a device called EZ PASS which allows you to pay tolls electronically without stopping but it does track where you get on and off a toll road and when.

The big brother aspect I am concerned with is police use a system that scans your license plate and records time and location for future use.  As they drive thru parking lots all vehicles are scanned while the officer just cruises by.  They are also installed on key traffic signals and the courts say they may hold the information indefinitely.  Some cities have had this in use for 10 years now. 

I understand it is not as bad here as London with all the cameras and facial recognition.

[malj1]

Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, myki card for metropolitan buses, trams and trains.

This one is the Seniors version [concession]

[Abhay]

3 Different Cards from Delhi Metro.

Delhi Metro offers a flat discount of 10% on the fare if card is used instead of token. The card itself costs Rs. 50 which is refundable if card is returned in good and usable condition.

Abhay