Author Topic: Coin and medal alignment  (Read 9045 times)

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Offline chrisild

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Coin and medal alignment
« on: October 26, 2009, 12:54:50 PM »
It should be noted that the research was conducted in America, where their coinage has coin-orientation as opposed to medal-orientation.

Do you actually use these terms (coin vs medal orientation) in the UK? After all, they do not really make much sense outside the US since most countries use the parallel orientation these days ...

As for how "fair" flipping a coin is, a couple of years ago a team in Poland played with Belgian euro coins. "The two professors and their students at the Podlaska Academy in Siedlce spun a Belgian one euro coin 250 times, and found it landed heads up 140 times. The cent coins proved even more likely to land heads up." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jan/04/euro.eu2

Fortunately we do not only have Polish university, Guardian and BBC teams who tried it thousands of times, but also the university professor Andreas Futschik from Vienna. He even played the tossing game with a catapult ... well, he had a 14 year old who did the job. :)

http://www.statistik.tuwien.ac.at/oezstat/ausg021/Umschlag/inhalt/inhalt.html
see "Andreas FUTSCHIK: Ist der Euro fair?" (PostScript file, should be readable as a PDF)

Christian

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Re: Coin and medal alignment
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2009, 04:13:36 PM »
Do you actually use these terms (coin vs medal orientation) in the UK? After all, they do not really make much sense outside the US since most countries use the parallel orientation these days ...

I have only learnt the terms coin-orientation and medal-orientation since I have been here.

My natural instinct is (still) to use the engineering terms, like saying that a US coin would appear the same way up if it were turned on its horizontal axis, likewise the £ and € types need to be turned on a vertical axis.   It may sound a rather long way of saying it, but, as with other terms that we find here, my way should be clear to everyone.

Just to make my point, what is parallel orientation?   Parallel with what?

Bill.
Ilford, Essex, near London, England.

People look for problems and complain.   Engineers find solutions but people still complain.

Offline chrisild

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Re: Coin and medal alignment
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2009, 04:30:14 PM »
Just to make my point, what is parallel orientation?   Parallel with what?

The positions of the dies are parallel, or rather the same. Probably not quite the right term; I tried translating the German "gleichgerichtet" into English. Maybe "equally oriented" would be better ...

Gleichgerichtet is what Americans call "medal" orientation. Gegengerichtet is what they call "coin" orientation. The Schön catalogs use arrows for that. Don't know if copying and pasting works for such symbols; let's see:

↑↑ = gleichgerichtet = US medal orientation
↓↑ = gegengerichtet = US coin orientation

Using the American terms for non-American coins makes about as much sense to me as calling all pieces from around here "world coins" while the US coins are not in that category. Logical from their POV but not from here ...

Christian

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Re: Coin and medal alignment
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2009, 05:08:11 PM »
At least we mean the same thing.   The only difference is in the wording.

I like your term 'parallel' as both the dies are properly aligned.   It cetainly makes sense to me now that you have explained it.   Likewise, I think that my engineering terms are positive, although rather long descriptions.

I am happy to use whatever term is agreed here, as long as we do all agree.  ::)

Bill.
Ilford, Essex, near London, England.

People look for problems and complain.   Engineers find solutions but people still complain.

BC Numismatics

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Re: Coin and medal alignment
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2009, 07:58:34 PM »
Coinage alignment is what is in use in America,& medallic alignment is what is in use in Great Britain & the Eurozone.

The Belgian,Dutch,Franch,& Luxembourgish pre-Euro coins all used coinage alignment.Now their Euro coins all use medallic alignment,as does the Italian,Monegasque,San Marinese,Spanish,& Vatican City Euro coins.

Aidan.

Offline chrisild

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Re: Coin and medal alignment
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2009, 09:41:19 PM »
All euro coins have that "parallel" or "equally oriented" alignment. Another reason why the term "coin orientation" or alignment makes no sense here. And it is certainly not just European thing. As far as I know, there aren't that many countries in the world where coins are still aligned the way they are aligned in the US ...

Christian

Offline Bimat

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Re: Coin and medal alignment
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2009, 03:18:04 PM »
All euro coins have that "parallel" or "equally oriented" alignment. Another reason why the term "coin orientation" or alignment makes no sense here. And it is certainly not just European thing. As far as I know, there aren't that many countries in the world where coins are still aligned the way they are aligned in the US ...

Christian
If I'm not mistaken,some of the pre-euro coins of France were in coin alignment.The 10 Franc bimetallic had coin alignment.Also,some of the Swiss coins in 1970's had similar alignment,I have one example of 5 Franc coin with coin alignment...

Aditya
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Offline chrisild

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Re: Coin and medal alignment
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2009, 03:57:37 PM »
If I'm not mistaken,some of the pre-euro coins of France were in coin alignment.The 10 Franc bimetallic had coin alignment.

You are not mistaken. :) In fact, Aidan already mentioned the French (and a few other) pre-euro coins. And sure, many older coins have that "French" alignment too - but I was referring to today's coinage. How many countries make their coins in "coin alignment" these days? Don't have any statistics at hand but ... not many, I think.

Quote
Also,some of the Swiss coins in 1970's had similar alignment,I have one example of 5 Franc coin with coin alignment...

Switzerland switched from "US coin" to "US medal" in 1981. So the Swiss coins made since 1982 have the, ahem, proper alignment.

Christian

BC Numismatics

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Re: Coin and medal alignment
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2009, 08:04:10 PM »
Christian,
  French Polynesia & New Caledonia still have their coins struck in coinage alignment.

About Switzerland,I think the 1 Frank,2 & 5 Franken coins have gone back to being struck in coinage alignment.I know that there was a period in which they were struck in medallic alignment.

Aidan.

Offline chrisild

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Re: Coin and medal alignment
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2009, 08:40:18 PM »
Ah, thanks for the info about French Polynesia and New Caledonia! Had a look at Wikipedia, but that was not exactly helpful. It says that "Coins with coin orientation include United States coinage, South Korean coinage, Thai coinage, Swiss coinage and pre-Euro French coinage." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin_orientation However, Swiss coins have, as I wrote, not been made that way for almost 30 years. (See the attached image which is from a Swissmint PDF document: http://www.swissmint.ch/upload/_pdf/dokumentationen/d/PRAGELIS.PDF)

So we have the United States, South Korea, Thailand, French Polynesia and New Caledonia that still have their coins made in US coin alignment. Does anybody know about any other current series with that orientation?

Christian

Offline Juno Moneta

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Re: Coin and medal alignment
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2014, 12:09:56 AM »
KISS  :-*  I've collected coins since 1964 and I couldn't describe to you the difference between 'coin and medallic' alignment by any of the methods commonly used, including this forum. The words are meaningless two days after you think you figured it out. The two up arrows or arrows in opposite directions - are you kidding me? The descriptors should be vertical and horizontal alignment in my (never to be humble) opinion. Properly orient a US coin, flip it VERTICALLY from either side of the coin and the opposite side comes of properly oriented. Most European coins you have to flip horizontally in order to have the opposite side come up properly oriented . It would be nice if KM (or any reference) would include a " - or | " in the descriptor for those attributing coins for errors. For example: Poland 10 Zlotych Copper-Nickel, 31mm, RO- ('RO-' is horizontal rotation) while USA Half dollar, 40% silver, 30.6mm, RO|, means vertical rotation. This system would keep everything on a even keel around the world for all collectors and eliminate "coin alignment" bias used by US collectors for US coins.

Offline <k>

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Re: Coin and medal alignment
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2014, 12:20:35 AM »
Highly original thought. I assume you have a scientific background, with such precise thinking.
Visit the website of The Royal Mint Museum.

See: The Royal Mint Museum.

Offline Globetrotter

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Re: Coin and medal alignment
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2014, 01:11:10 PM »
Hi,

as defined in the SCWC:

COIN vs MEDAL ALIGNMENT
Some coins are struck with obverse and reverse aligned at a rotation of 180 degrees from
each other. When a coin is held for vertical viewing with the obverse design aligned upright
and the index finger and thumb at the top and bottom, upon rotation from left to right for viewing
the reverse, the latter will be upside down. Such alignment is called “coin rotation.” Other
coins are struck with the obverse and reverse designs mated on an alignment of zero or 360
degrees. If such an example is held and rotated as described, the reverse will appear upright.
This is the alignment, which is generally observed in the striking of medals, and for that reason
coins produced in this manner are considered struck in “medal rotation”. In some
instances, often through error, certain coin issues have been struck to both alignment standards,
creating interesting collectible varieties, which will be found noted in some listings. In
addition, some countries are now producing coins with other designated obverse to reverse
alignments which are considered standard for this type.

This definition is OK and clear in my opinion.

When I report coins to SCWC, this is one of the informations I give about the coin. I have that information for all the coins in my collection and I check all my doubles to see, if I find any rotation errors...

Have you ever thought about the definition of Position A / Position B for coins with edge letterings?

From SCWC again:

Many Belgian coins are collected by what is known as Position
A and Position B edges. Some dates command a premium
depending on the position which are as follows:
Position A: Coins with portrait side down having upright edge
lettering.
Position B: Coins with portrait side up having upright edge lettering.

I have seen these Positions being applied for other coins (not from Belgium), where there is no portrait.... and then you're lost!

Ole
Ole

If you're interested in coin variants please find some English documentation here:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
and in French on Michel's site (the presentations are not the same):
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/

Offline chrisild

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Re: Coin and medal alignment
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2014, 02:58:02 PM »
This definition is OK and clear in my opinion.

About as OK and clear as saying that the head of state is called president, except for some countries where it's different. ;D  Of course the terms "coin alignment" and "medal alignment" make sense in the US and the few countries where coins are oriented that way. It just does not make sense in most other countries

As for "A" and "B" positions of the edge inscription, well, contrary to parallel and non-parallel orientation, that is basically "decided" by mere coincidence. If people want to collect both varieties, fine with me of course. :)

Christian