Author Topic: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949  (Read 9968 times)

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Offline thelawnet

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Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2009, 02:48:23 AM »
Everything is relative. This is one of the nicest design for the NEI. Most were just text, numbers and the VOC logo and what looks good is really, really scarce.

Actually the VOC monogram coins have designs on the other side. I like the VOC duits - everybody likes lions. Of course, the nice ones like this:



are very scarce indeed. Incidentally, the BM have it as a 'ducat' and a 'trade coin' (http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/cm/g/gold_ducat_of_the_dutch_east_i.aspx). I sent them an email questioning this, but have not received a response yet.

The really ugly ones are the JAVA duits, either VOC or Louis Napoleon.

Speaking of which, how do you think this coin (complete with inaccurate Wikipedia-taken writeup) ended up in the ground in London? http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=16946&cat=103&limit=recent&date=1232363063 Edit: not in the ground, on the banks of the Thames


Perhaps the owner should list it on ebay as a 'Middlesex penny'

« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 02:51:12 AM by thelawnet »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2009, 03:11:21 AM »
Several possible ways. To name a few:

- East Indiaman heading home is surprised by storm and seeks shelter in London / does not intend to go back to Amsterdam now that it is occupied by France / is intercepted by the British navy and brought to London
- crew member / disgruntled soldier is taken prisoner / enlists in British military / has escaped from the French who want to hang him for smuggling stuff to Britain / had to abandon ship as it was too damaged / decides there won't be another trip to the NEI to spend the coin and throws it out / tries to pay the ferrymen with the wrong coin, coin gets tossed into the water / throws worthless coin at mudlarks to see them dive / loses coin while working ropes / oars / stepping into ferry / pulling sloop ashore.

The gold and silver duit coins were struck in the Netherlands and not shipped to the NEI. They were popular new year gifts, used in jewelry and as talisman. The mintmaster struck and sold them for his own account, often more or less illegally, though few if anyone cared. They are not coins and did not circulate.

I think the ugliest NEI coins are the bonks.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline thelawnet

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Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2009, 03:18:43 AM »
Several possible ways. To name a few:

- East Indiaman heading home is surprised by storm and seeks shelter in London / does not intend to go back to Amsterdam now that it is occupied by France / is intercepted by the British navy and brought to London
- crew member / disgruntled soldier is taken prisoner / enlists in British military / has escaped from the French who want to hang him for smuggling stuff to Britain / had to abandon ship as it was too damaged / decides there won't be another trip to the NEI to spend the coin and throws it out / tries to pay the ferrymen with the wrong coin, coin gets tossed into the water / throws worthless coin at mudlarks to see them dive / loses coin while working ropes / oars / stepping into ferry / pulling sloop ashore.

The duits were perhaps more likely to have been on their way to the Indies, given that they were worth twice as much there (relative to silver), so you really wouldn't want to bring them back with you.

Quote
I think the ugliest NEI coins are the bonks.

Yet very collectible for the reason that they don't look like coins at all.

Offline Rangnath

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Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2009, 03:28:05 AM »
and the chop mark didn't pierce the sail! 
can you afford it thelawnet?
richie

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2009, 03:37:15 AM »
The duits were perhaps more likely to have been on their way to the Indies, given that they were worth twice as much there (relative to silver), so you really wouldn't want to bring them back with you.

The sailors were not allowed to transport them to or from the NEI. They would smuggle them on the way to the NEI, mostly by swallowing them before they were checked in port before coming on board. It is therefore pretty unlikely to have been on its way to the NEI. They would still be "internalized" or retrieved and stashed away in the sailor's belongings.

On coming back, the coins would be worthless, but we know that the sailors often had a few left and would throw them to the mudlarks to avoid being caught with them leaving the ship, because when tunnels were made for the Amsterdam underground, construction workers found large amount of VOC duit coins where the harbour front had been.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline thelawnet

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Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2009, 03:45:42 AM »
and the chop mark didn't pierce the sail! 
can you afford it thelawnet?
richie

It is up for $100 starting bid. KM suggests $200 in UNC, $120 in XF, $80 in VF, and $45 in F.

I know marks on things like 8 Reals, ducats, etc. can enhance the value of coins, because the base coins are so common, but I'm not sure in this case.

This 1/8 gulden is currently at $214 (book value is $110 in UNC):



The seller makes a living out of entombing his coins, a process which transforms common $2 coins into pieces that fetch for $30, so I think that price is inflated by the plastic collectors. Admittedly it does seem to have beautiful lustre, but I won't buy into the slabbing game (it's definitely profitable if you do - the 'Millennia collection' sold last year included numerous Indies (and other) coins acquired in a 2004 auction, where they were not slabbed, and where in 2004 they were described as 'XF or better' by the auctioneer, by the time they'd been sent for slabbing by the mysterious multimillionaire who'd acquired vast numbers of expensive coins for investment purposes they became things like 'NGC MS-63', for the same coin, and sold for double the price).
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 03:50:55 AM by thelawnet »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2009, 02:47:15 PM »
The game is, you keep sending them to grading companies, until they get graded by someone who's just slightly more relaxed or less careful and you get the grade you want.

It reminds me of what a chess grand master once said: all you have to do to become a grand master is win from the weakest grand master on his worst day. Therefore, in the end, the whole world can become a grand master. Similarly, in the end, all coins will be unc in the eyes of "professional" graders. I think this is exactly why BU has been invented.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

BC Numismatics

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Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949.
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2009, 01:47:58 AM »
The Yank practice of slabbing,plus the Sheldon grading system has actually done a lot of harm to numismatics,in my opinion.

I just stick to simple solutions for simple problems.

Aidan.