Strange William IIII 'Crown'

[tonyclayton]

A correspondent has inquired about the 'coin' illustrated.  It is crown size in diameter, but heavy (almost 50g) and thus over thick.  Tested positive for silver.

I suspect it is a pattern, but the portrait seems different to the known crown pattern (see the mouth).

Any information would be most gratefully received by the owner (not me!)

Best wishes to all

Tony

[akona20]

Ummm really!!! sheesh. It is necessary to weigh and measure this item with some care.  Please include the thickness. I believe these were produced in limited numbers. It is worth some money if it is genuine as it looks at present.

[akona20]

Please also provide an edge picture.

[Figleaf]

Both sides are different from the regular 1831 proofs. On the face, differences are minor (eyes, nostrils, mouth). It could well be a prototype that was spruced up a little. The arms are quite different in style and decor. It is possible that someone agreed with me that the helmet is in bad taste (though heraldically not incorrect), as it makes the principal arms smaller and adds an artificially long "neck" on top of the arms and blank space below it. If so, the reverse on this piece could well be seen as a predecessor of the design on the 1831 proofs. There would obviously have been a need for such patterns in 1830/1 to arrive at an "approved" head for domestic and colonial coinage.

The design looks highly professional to me. I can't find a reason why a professional medal maker would have made it like this, but I can very well imagine this as a rejected design. My doubts centre on the metal. Why make your first attempt in piedfort silver? Copper would have done just as well and piedfort silver patterns are usually reserved to get final permission from the king. Reasons could be that William Wyon had access to mint metal and equipment, so the metal was irrelevant to him or that the king sharply disagreed with the mint over the submitted design and told them to re-work it.

In sum, I see no reason to reject this piece out of hand as a fantasy. It would need to be studied by professional specialists for a final verdict.

Peter

[akona20]

38mm x 4mm and 54 grams are the figures and a smooth edge. We can perhaps at this stage forget the edge but if the rest fit then we can proceed. There was some playing with designs at this stage at what Figleaf says is interesting and perhaps value adding rather than detracting. Time for bed here but it needs a full professional look. Given previous history this is a job for Spinks (or a couple of others).

[tonyclayton]

The edge is plain.  I agree that it looks like a trial piece.

The King's mouth seems distinctly different.

I do NOT have access to the coin, so cannot give thickness.  It is silver - it was chemically tested on the edge, I am told.

Thank you for your comments - The owner is in Malta so access to expertise is limited!

[Figleaf]

I would suggest that as a first step, he sends pictures by mail to the UK Royal Mint. They seem quite responsive. Our member jameso used to work there. He may be able to give you a specific contact point or contact information.

Peter

[tonyclayton]

38mm x 4mm and 54 grams are the figures and a smooth edge. We can perhaps at this stage forget the edge but if the rest fit then we can proceed. There was some playing with designs at this stage at what Figleaf says is interesting and perhaps value adding rather than detracting. Time for bed here but it needs a full professional look. Given previous history this is a job for Spinks (or a couple of others).

Can you give me any references on which you base the above?

[akona20]

Hi Tony,

The references are from memory but I will look for something on this today. I saw one about 30 years ago.

[akona20]

Quick discussions with others point to replicas of these coins being produced and reasonably common however they had not seen a silver one. So this has to go for authentication.

[edward]

my coin so here goes
:diameter of coin 3.9cm
: 4mm edge width

[andyg]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/William-IV-1831-replica-piedfort-silver-crown-uncirculated-heavy-beautiful-/310618228975?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item48524a08ef&nma=true&si=N4ce9ASIbe58eyxnCyAyZPq9IuY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Figleaf]

Well done andyg. Same dies. No doubt.

Peter

[edward]

Would like to say a big thank you to Tony and all the contributors of this forum for satisfying my curiousity about origins and possible value of this coin.
Really appreciated using your time towards final conclusion

Thanks again
EDWARD POCOCK

[tonyclayton]

Always glad to help, and thanks to all on this forum for increasing my knowledge.