Author Topic: Please Help in identification.  (Read 1049 times)

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Offline DarshanBaweja

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Please Help in identification.
« on: June 17, 2013, 07:28:06 PM »
is it fake or genuine coin of shahajahan ?
or  Help in identification.
9.96 g
20mm.20mm
metal unknown
nonmagnetic
iron look   :-\
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 02:09:13 AM by Figleaf »

Offline Globetrotter

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Re: Please Help in identification.
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2017, 10:20:12 PM »
What have you found out since this post?

Ole
Ole

If you're interested in coin variants please find some English documentation here:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
and in French on Michel's site (the presentations are not the same):
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/

Offline Oesho

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Re: Please Help in identification.
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2017, 03:05:40 PM »
Copy of the draft of the article that appeared in the JONS
Surat lead pice.                                     Jan Lingen
Many old books which by now are free of copyrights has been digitized by ‘Google’, which is a great advantage for research. For those less familiar with search options, DVD’s have been prepared with selections of  books on a particular subject. Such a DVD was compiled on books on Asian Numismatics.
A publication which attracted my attention was: “Verhandelingen van het Bataviaasch Genootschap der Konsten en Weetenschappen, MDCCLXXXVI.” (Paper of the Batavian Society of Art and Science, 1786).
Vol. VI deals with the Coins, Measurements and Weights of Dutch India. Dutch India included not only present Indonesia, but all other parts of Asia were the Dutch had possessions, like Malacca, Ceylon and India.
Such old publications may still contain interesting information, such as the mentioning of lead Surat pice.

VI
VERHANDELING
DER
MUNTEN, MAATEN
EN GEWICHTEN
VAN
NEERLANDSCH INDIA

   
VI
PAPER
ON THE
COINS, MEASURMENTS
AND WEIGHTS
OF
DUTCH INDIA



Amandelen, ook Pedans genaamt, gaan op Souratte 60 op een koperen, en 40 op een looden Peis.

Peys, loode Souratsche, gaan 68 min of meer op een Ropy, en doen ieder 40 Amandelen.
     Te Bombay, en by de Portugeezen, die ze Boeseroeks noemen, gaan 80 op een Ropy.   
Almonds, also called ‘Pedans’, exchange at Surat for 60 to a copper and 40 to a lead pice.


More or less 68 lead pice of Surat are equal to a rupee and exchange for 40 almonds each.
At Bombay, and also by the Portuguese, who called them bazaruccos, the exchange for 80 to a rupee.


In a footnote the Journal of the Bombay Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society, vol. XXII (1908), p.254, I came across another reference to such coins.
“The late Pandit Bhagvanlal Indraji, in his article on “Antiquarian Remains at Sopārā and Padana,” contributed to the Journal of the Bombay Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society, Vol. XV, No. XL, tells of his obtaining at Sopārā about ten coins of white metal, all of them square, and all bearing the legend of Shāh Jahān. He adds (p.279), “I believe these coins were perhaps struck at Sopārā to replace the Portuguese white metal coins, which were current in this part of the country. I may mention that, except here, I have never found a white metal Moghul coin.” Now Sopārā is otherwise unknown as a mint town, and it is extremely improbable that at this long since decayed emporium of trade a mint should have been opened by the Mughals solely for the production of white metal coins.
Through the generosity of my kind friend Mr. Frāmjī Jāmaspji Thānāwālā four of these tutenag coins are now in my possession, and though on none of them can the place of mintage be deciphered, still the coins themselves resemble so closely the square rupee mentioned as type F that I incline to assign both to one and the same mint. But the rupee distinctly bears the name of its mint-town Sūrat, and hence we may with probability infer that it was from Surat these rare tutenag coins were issued.”
Tavernier already mentions the use of bitter almonds in Gujarat. “What the small cash concerned, they don’t want cowries, but they use small almonds which are imported from Ormuz, where they grow in the wilderness of the Kingdom of Lar.
(Text from the Dutch edition of Tavernier 1682: Wat de kleine munt aangaat / zij willen geen van de schulpen: maar ze hebben van deze kleine Amadelen / de welken van omtrent Ormuz komen / en in de wildernissen van ’t Koninkrijk Lar wassen.)
To recapitulate at Surat:
60 almonds = AE pice,
40 almonds = Pb pice,
~68 Pb pice = AR rupee,
and at Bombay:
80 Pb pice (bazaruccos) = AR rupee. This exchange rate of 80 pice to one rupee was used by the British East India Company from 1733 to 1773 after which date the minting of tutenag pice was stopped (Pridmore, p.117-122).
During the reign of D. Joāo V (1706-1750) and D. José I (1750-1777) we see an increase of the
production of tutanag bazarucos by the Portuguese at the mints of Goa, Bassein, Daman, Diu and Chaul. It is therefore reasonable to assume that the lead pice of Surat as referred to in the Dutch PAPER ON THE COINS, MEASURMENTS AND WEIGHTS OF DUTCH INDIA were produced about the middle of the 18e century. This is also confirmed by the exchange rate at Bombay.

From the above documentation it is clear that a lead pice or bazaruco was current at Surat and  Pandit Bhagvanlal Indraji gives us so far the only description as how these may look like.
Many collectors of Mughal coins regularly have come across certain cast Mughal lead/tutanag coins which usually were regarded as counterfeits. However to be counterfeits, much more care should had to be taken by the production. The coins as described by Pandit Bhagvanlal Indraji clearly show a casting rim on the edge as also the bazarucos of the British and the Portugese usualy show.




Some examples of such lead/tutanag bazarucos

Illustrations 1 (DSCN5449)
Weight 9.55 g.
Obv.: Kalima
Rev.: ‘shah jahan badshah ghazi’

Illustration 2 (DSCN5451)
Weight: 9.40 g.
As ill. 1

Illustration 3 (DSCN5454)
Weight: 10.03 g.
Obv.: Kalima
Rev.: ’jalal al-din Muhammad akbar badshah ghazi’

Illustration 4 (DSCN5455)
Weight: 10.65 g.
Obv.: ‘jal-jalla-lah allahu akbar’
Rev.: ‘ zarb lahore - aban ilahi 4x’

The coins of illustration 1 and 2 comply perfectly with Pandit Bhagvanlal Indraji description. Illustration 3 is, except that it is in the name of Akbar, in all other aspects similar.
Illustration 4 doesn’t comply with Pandit Bhagvanlal Indrajis’ description, but is of similar cast fabric and metal and may therefore belong to the same series of cast Mughal style bazarucos of lead/tutanag alloy.

It is therefore reasonable to assume, on account of the Dutch records and the article of Pandit Bhagvanlal Indraji, that the cast lead/tutanag coins of Mughal style were produced as bazarucos either in Surat or in its neighbourhood. From the exchange rate provided, they may have been produced around the middle of the 18th century.
In personal correspondence with Paul Stevens he mentioned that that the British records are silent about such lead pice produced at Surat and it therefore is well possible that they were privately produced at a neighbouring place to meet a local demand for small change.

Offline asm

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Re: Please Help in identification.
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2017, 03:38:47 AM »
Dear Oesho,
Thank you very much for the fantastic article and the references.
These 'coins' are found /offered once in a while and I have always resisted buying them terming them as fakes..............
Hope to lay my hands on one of these again.

Amit
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

Offline drnsreedhar

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Re: Please Help in identification.
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2017, 06:21:24 AM »
Thanks Oesho for this excellent article on lead coins of Mughals.
Dr.Sreedhar

Offline saro

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Re: Please Help in identification.
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2017, 03:03:30 PM »
can I add this one, recently found : 9,46g / 17,5 x 18mm similar to illustrations 1 & 2 above
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline Oesho

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Re: Please Help in identification.
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2017, 04:56:25 PM »
Yes Saro, this is a similar coin.