Author Topic: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms  (Read 18852 times)

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Offline chrisild

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Re: NCLT Re: Obverse and reverse
« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2014, 11:39:52 AM »
These were issued in 2002 and now they are no longer in circulation.

There may initially have been plans, of course, to use them as cash. But from what I have read (which does not necessarily mean much ;) ), they were not issued as circulation pieces but with the intention of selling them to collectors.

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Why Netherlands new 1 cent coin ( with the new King) is not found in circulation? Does it make it a fantasy piece?

Of course not; a "fantasy" piece is not the same as an NCLT piece. Besides, if anybody grabbed such a Dutch 1 cent coin and took it to France or Germany for example, it would certainly be treated like any other 1 ct circulation coin ...

The Polish 2 zł collector coins were not issued at face but not for circulation. As you wrote, they did not meet the specifications of the standard pieces. That is now different - the 5 zł commems can (and probably will) be used just like the regular pieces.

Christian

Offline <k>

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Re: NCLT Re: Obverse and reverse
« Reply #61 on: September 03, 2014, 12:02:33 PM »
Please do not forget timeline.
These were issued in 2002 and now they are no longer in circulation.

Must I repeat myself yet again? These pieces NEVER circulated and were never intended to.

From Wikipedia:

No circulating coins exist, but there are numerous designs of 25-centime, 50-centime and 1-franc coins made of non-precious metal to be sold to foreign collectors.

They're listed in the Gerhard Katalog so are not fantasies.
Visit the website of The Royal Mint Museum.

See: The Royal Mint Museum.

Online Pabitra

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Re: NCLT Re: Obverse and reverse
« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2014, 01:23:13 PM »
Besides, if anybody grabbed such a Dutch 1 cent coin and took it to France or Germany for example, it would certainly be treated like any other 1 ct circulation coin ...

So it means that you may more than face value and go to other country and use it at face value.
The coin is available only as part of a set and 3.88 Euros face value puts you back by nearly 7 Euros, excluding the labour cost of extracting the coin from its package.


The Polish 2 zł collector coins were not issued at face but not for circulation.

No. They were issued at face value and I must have bought more than 400 zloty worth of them at National Bank branches in Warsaw as well as Krakow. Both these branches have an exclusive counter for them. In some case, there used to be long queues for them. I remember two incidents. One was issue related to the Pope John Paul II and was issue of Eurocup.

Offline chrisild

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Re: NCLT Re: Obverse and reverse
« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2014, 05:33:13 PM »
So it means that you may more than face value and go to other country and use it at face value.

You asked whether such a Dutch 1 cent is a, quote, fantasy piece. No, it is not - they were and are issued by the Dutch Mint (KNM) based on Dutch and EU law. Of course it would be silly to open a relatively expensive set and then spend the pieces at face. :) My point was that, except for interested collectors, nobody would care if you tried to spend them in AT, DE, FR, etc.  It's about the same thing with any circulation type coin that is part of a proof set: Hardly anybody will crack such a set open and then try to spend the pieces, but if you did it, nobody would say "oh my, what a shiny piece, I will not accept this as a means of payment" ...

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They were issued at face value and I must have bought more than 400 zloty worth of them at National Bank branches in Warsaw as well as Krakow.

Yes, I know those were issued at face. But according to my (very limited) experience, and according to what I have heard and read from others, they did not circulate.

Christian

Offline andyg

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Re: NCLT Re: Obverse and reverse
« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2014, 09:47:59 PM »
The Polish 2 zł collector coins were not issued at face but not for circulation.

/Peacekeeping hat on
Christian - I think Pabitra was replying to your double negative - I don't think it was quite what you meant :)
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline chrisild

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Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2014, 10:41:28 PM »
You might have a point there. Have I mentioned before that I am fairly good at proofreading but a lousy proofreader when it comes to my own texts? After all, I know very well what I wanted to say ...

Maybe I need a vacation, or a drink, or both. Sorry, Pabitra. 8)

Christian

Online Pabitra

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Re: NCLT Re: Obverse and reverse
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2014, 07:23:43 PM »
You asked whether such a Dutch 1 cent is a, quote, fantasy piece.

No. I did not ask if Dutch 1 cent was a fantasy piece.
I only said that if the definition of coin was that it should circulate then new Dutch 1 cent will not get defined as a coin.

Kindly permit to tell a joke.

One boy: what does your father do?
Second boy: He is a numismatist.
First: what exactly does he do during the whole day?
Second: He collects coins.
First: Oh, now I understand. In our country, we call them beggars.      :)

In the similar vein ( no offence meant to any one), if I have to take a coin minted in Utrecht and use it as a legal tender in, say Austria then I would rather take Chinese made Dollars and use them in USA.
( kindly note that this is a humour too ).  ;D

Online Figleaf

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Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #67 on: September 04, 2014, 09:35:11 PM »
Pabitra, my definition of a coin is something that circulates. The cents and 2 cents with the new king do not circulate, so for me, they are not coins. I don't ask anyone to agree with that, but I think it is important that buyers know these coin does not circulate. I am sure you will find this opinion elsewhere on this site. I collected coins for their background: their role in economy and finance.

I enjoy symbols and stuff pictured on coins, but it seldom made me buy one (I will confess to buying Egyptian coins with ancient artifacts on them.) My coins were to a large extent ugly, I had few uncs and very few proofs. I habitually broke coins out of their packaging if they could not be had without. In fact, one piece of evidence against the thieves who stole my collection is coins in a carton that can only be found in packaging.

Of course there are difficult cases, where it's not clear if a piece circulates or not. The euro silverware available at face is a case in point. I give them the benefit of the doubt, but I don't ask anyone to agree with that either. A collector, spending a few coins that are immediately put aside or even refused amounts to hobbyism, not to circulation. A coin not meant for circulation that turns up in change (think of the UK Churchill crown) amounts to a circulation coin for me. One thing is sure: even hobbyism cannot turn a coin that can only be bought way over its face value into a circulation coin.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Online Pabitra

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Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #68 on: September 04, 2014, 10:54:44 PM »
my definition of a coin is something that circulates. The cents and 2 cents with the new king do not circulate, so for me, they are not coins. I don't ask anyone to agree with that,
You may not ask anyone to agree OR others may not agree with you, but I agree with you completely.
That precisely is the definition of a coin.

Offline chrisild

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Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #69 on: September 04, 2014, 11:10:03 PM »
Guess we all agree that it is not possible to come up with an easy one-size-fits-all definition or differentiation here. But it would be quite counterproductive in my opinion to simply call everything that is not found in circulation a "fantasy" piece.

Christian

Online Pabitra

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Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #70 on: September 05, 2014, 01:55:57 PM »
In between coins ( metal pieces which circulate, are considered money, trusted, available at face value and accepted at face value, issued by an authority and specific to a sovereign area ) and fantasy ( which seemingly represent a sovereign area which is figment of some one's imagination and does not meet all the conditions required for being a coin) are two more categories. They are collectibles and commemoratives.
Collectibles are ones which people fancy because of either bullion value, possibility of appreciation, and artistic or personal choice theme involved.
Commemoratives can be coin or collectible, are made to commemorate a person ( real or imaginary), an event or a historic milestone.

Similar debated definitions exist for terms like legal tender, seigniorage etc but then they would form another thread, if at all they need to be discussed.