Utrecht, duit 1525-1527 v.d. Chijs XXII-3

[Figleaf]

Here is a baffling coin. Judging from the style, it is 16^th century, in the name of a member of the Wittelsbach house, rulers of Bavaria (the lozenges are the arms of Bavaria). The drawing is a 1583 half stuiver in the name of Ernestus of Bavaria, Prince-Bishop of Li?ge. The coin closely resembles the drawing, except a) I can't make the legend fit and b) on the coin, the arms are not crowned ( think there's a date above the arms). Also, I am not sure the design elements btween the arms of the cross are the same.

Can anyone identify this coin?

Peter

[bruce61813]

Peter, I think you need to look at the right hand picture. I see a face, I would look at 1600 hammered coins. I don't have any good references for them except England.

Bruce

[Figleaf]

I see what you mean, Bruce. Looks like a facing portrait. There wouldn't be too many facing portraits in this time (yes, I know, Henry VIII). Like you, my documentation on this time and place is basically KM. Let's start digging...

Peter

[bruce61813]

Peter, can you post a maximum, 50 k picture  of just the side with the coat of arms? actually two pictures, one of each side would let me work on both sides, 50 k at 72 dpi would be too large, but 50k at 150 might work well, I need to be able to enlarge the picture and play with contrast.


Bruce

[bart]

Peter,

The Wittelsbach prince-bishops of liege weremost of the time also archbishops of Cologne, bishops of M?nster and had some other titles.
Here I found a 8 heller of Cologne in the name of Ferdinand of Bavaria which resembles your coin.

Bart

[Figleaf]

Yes, it could be a 16th century coin from Cologne (a period not covered by KM). The same dealer also has coins with the Bavarian arms in the third and fourth quarter, but very few copper coins. None have the long cross, though ans I can't make out a second shield.

Bruce, I tried to make better, more detailed pics, but higher resolution scans lose detail, since the scanner picks up all uneven areas. See the unidentified Indians I posted. Maybe Santa will bring a good camera...?

Peter

[bruce61813]

Hi Peter, well it still looks like a facing portrait, the lettering is a larger style, like those used in in England, but I don't think it is English, just the style reminds me of them. Post a large uncorrected scan of each side, and let me see what I can do.


Bruce

[Figleaf]

This mystery piece has at last been identified on another forum.

Bishopric Utrecht, duit 1525-1527. Catalog ref: v. d. Chijs XXII-3 (bottom row right) in the name of Henry of Bavaria (known as Henry of the Palts in Germany), who was bishop from 1524 to 1529.

obv: arms of the bishop (there is a more current variant with te arms of the bishopric): first and second quarter Bavaria, third and fourth quarter Pfalts in a pearl circle. Around: + HENRICVS EPS TRIECT (Henricus episcopus Traiectum - Henry bishop of Utrecht)

rev: decorated long cross breaking through a pearl circle, climbing lions in the corners. Around: ANN  O.DO  MINI. (date) - in the year of the lord

With thanks to Sheep and Rimidi for a brilliant determination.

Peter

[BC Numismatics]

Peter,
  So,this is a very early Dutch coin then? Utrecht changed hands a lot from around 1300 until 1648.

Aidan.

[Figleaf]

No, it didn't. Bishops have a tendency not to have offspring. It was a church fief until Henry's short reign. Henry was the last bishop with a double title (bishop of Utrecht and lord of Utrecht). He couldn't keep order in his little empire and ran away, leaving the land to the count of Holland (who were the dukes of Burgundy) and the Duke of Gelre (whose lands would eventually be seized by the dukes of Burgundy as well). The church title still exists, but since Henry, there's no land attached to it.

Strictly speaking, this is therefore not a Dutch coin, but a feudal coin of Utrecht and one of the first struck in what is now the Netherlands to carry a date.

Peter