Author Topic: Troubled coins  (Read 24017 times)

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Offline bagerap

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #270 on: April 29, 2021, 08:09:59 PM »
This seller needs watching, these "coins" are bound to reappear in the future. And look at his other listings too:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254959784040?hash=item3b5cc99068:g:s5cAAOSwdDZgidQO

Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #271 on: April 29, 2021, 08:42:11 PM »
This seller needs watching, these "coins" are bound to reappear in the future. And look at his other listings too:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254959784040?hash=item3b5cc99068:g:s5cAAOSwdDZgidQO

I discussed this seller with another collector previously. He is careful in his description wording which includes “Please also view my Historical cards series which I also produce myself & are as ALWAYS also post free.“
By saying he also produces the cards, he is indirectly saying that he produces the coins, but some buyers will likely think they are genuine.

He is currently listing countermarks with 1916, UVF, RIC 1919, RIC 1867, as well as PEARS.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #272 on: April 29, 2021, 10:25:50 PM »
He finally gets around to saying that he produces them, but they could fool a lot of collectors who don't read the listing carefully.

Buyer beware when a handful of the same counterstamps show up at the same time. I've never see a RIC stamp so having a small group appear together is a red flag. They're pretty well done but not good enough to fool a serious collector.

The 1916 and UVF stamps are easier to pass off to unsuspecting buyers as they're both common, especially the UVF. Other than his, there seems to be other fakes of the 1916 that show up here and there...not so much of the UVF's.

Bruce
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Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #273 on: April 29, 2021, 11:46:23 PM »
Hi Bruce.
Would not stamping UVF across the Queen’s portrait on a 1967 UK penny also be unusual? It would be more believable if he had chosen to stamp it on an Irish coin.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #274 on: April 30, 2021, 07:27:40 PM »
About 90% of all Loyalist slogans are struck on Irish coins, but there are quite a few exceptions. Yes, UVF on an Irish coin is more believable.

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #275 on: May 01, 2021, 01:37:11 PM »
Though having different leadership and structure, both the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) and the Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF) Loyalist paramilitaries were ostensibly the same organization. The UDA wanted to be seen as a legitimate political group working towards a peaceful solution. Ironically, their motto "law before violence" was a sham. Their approach wasn't political or peaceful, but always violent.

The origins of the UDA can be traced back to a Belfast association of pigeon breeders on the Shankill Rd. in late 1971. A small number of local defense associations...an early term for paramiltaries...banded togethr in response to intensifying Nationalist violence in their neighborhoods, partially because of the recent disbanding of the official police force known as the B-Specials. The principal organizer and first commander was a former British Army soldier named Charles Harding Smith. Under his leadership, the UDA would become the largest paramilitary during the Troubles with a membership of between 30,000 and 40,000.

In the summer of 1972, the UDA orgaanized the UFF. Though their structure and leadership were different it soon became apparent that they were a cover for UDA inspired violence. Though the two groups claimed independence from each other, their true nature and purpose was well known to the British Government. Despite this, while the UFF was declared illegal in November, 1973, it wasn't until September, 1992 that the UDA was proscribed. When it became glaringly obvious to everyone that the UDA wasn't interested in "law before violence" their hand was forced. While wearing a set of blinders, the government had used the UDA for their own purposes.

Meanwhile, in 2007, disaffected members of the now underground UFF split and formed  what became known as the Real UFF. As with most splinter groups such as the Real IRA, the membership opposed all peace efforts and wanted to continue the armed resistence. Between 2009 and 2011 they were credited with over two dozen terrorist attacks, mostly in County Antrim. Their last recorded act was a bomb attack in North Belfast in February, 2013. Their status today is unknown.

UDA counterstamped coins are quite common, but UFF examples not so much. I haven't seen a coin with both stamps applied.

Bruce
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 12:37:03 PM by brandm24 »
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #276 on: May 01, 2021, 01:55:45 PM »
The image of the mural is of one painted on a building on Templemore Ave. in Belfast. "Simply the Best" is a slogan sometimes used by C Company of the UDA. I have an Irish Punt in my collection stamped "STB / C Coy" and is an abbreviation of their slogan.

Young Newton was one of the loosely organized Loyalist youth gangs that roamed areas of Belfast, especially in the estates, and known collectively as the "Tartan Gangs." Young Newton was associated in some way with the youth wing of the UDA called the Ulster Young Militants" (UYM). Their motto,"Terrae Fillus" means "Son of the Land."

Though ostensibly controlled and under the leadership of the UDA, the UYM often operated independently so actual control of their ativities was minimal. The scope of UYM influence was confined to mostly East and South Belfast.

The LPA stands for Loyalist Prisoner Aid. Beyond the obvious, I found no history or record of this organization. The LPA banner flying above the Ulster flag is seen on a street lamp in Glen Estate in Newtownards.

Bruce
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Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #277 on: May 05, 2021, 09:36:48 PM »
Unexpected arrival in today’s post. From my long time collector contact in Ireland.

1928 Saorstat Eireann penny countermark 1690

1950 Eire penny countermark UVF

1975 Eire 10p countermark UVF

Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #278 on: May 05, 2021, 09:59:39 PM »
You don't see too many counterstamps on Irish Free State coins, so that's a good one. Thanks for posting your latest, CTX.

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #279 on: June 13, 2021, 01:45:46 PM »
There's a fair amount of anecdotal evidence that suggests the use of an ampersand (&) is an affirmation of the Loyalist view of the union of Ireland/ Northern Ireland with the UK. I say Ireland/Northern Ireland because I've seen stamped coins from both the Home Rule and pre-Home Rule periods. Examples include an 1860 Victoria Penny and a 1969 Irish 10p.

Gavin Scott seemed to suggest the possibility in the notes he kept on his extensive collection of coinflict world coinage. The collection was acquired by the Fitzwilliam Museum (Cambridge) several years ago and a notation next to his 1969 Irish 10p ampersand coin was "England & Northern Ireland?" Since then I've seen speculation from others that he may have been correct. Not a certain attribution but interesting nevertheless.

With that in mind, I recently acquired this 1983 US Kennedy Half Dollar with an ampersand clearly defacing his portrait. Could this be an American protest against the first Catholic and Irish/American President of the United States? He was enormously popular here among Catholics and others but not by some who feared that Rome would unduly influence his policy making. It didn't of course, but at the time is was a real fear of some non-Catholics.

His popularity in the Irish Repulic and in Catholic neighborhoods of Northern Ireland was quite strong, but not so in Loyalist, mostly Protestant majorities.

In June, 1963 Kennedy made a four day visit to Ireland making stops in Dublin, Galway, Limerick and County Wexford, his ancestral home. He was greeted with great enthusiasm and even addressed the Irish Parliament while there. He long described his visit as "The besy four days of my life." Tragically, only five monthe later he would be assassinated in Dallas.

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #280 on: June 13, 2021, 01:48:53 PM »
In 2013 the Irish Central Bank issued a coin commemorating the 50th anniversary of Kennedy's visit to Ireland.

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #281 on: June 13, 2021, 04:15:47 PM »
I remember that visit being reported on in Dutch newspapers. It was before we had television and before the troubles made Northern Ireland a civil war zone. The atmosphere was reported as festive and Kennedy as having a great time. Decades later, I went to Ireland, walls scrubbed clean again and also found a friendly population and had a wonderful time. It's what happened in-between that is incredible. These coins help not to forget.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline FosseWay

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #282 on: June 13, 2021, 05:44:38 PM »
...a notation next to his 1969 Irish 10p ampersand coin was "England & Northern Ireland?"

Not sure about England, but the full name of the country is the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, so I can definitely see the logic.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #283 on: June 13, 2021, 10:39:04 PM »
Not sure about England, but the full name of the country is the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, so I can definitely see the logic.
I double checked my notes and Scott's notation actually says "Great Britain & Ireland," without a question mark. This suggests a bit more certainty on his part as to the meaning. The Fitzwilliam designates the coin as F-18 in their inventory.

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #284 on: June 13, 2021, 10:46:14 PM »
It's what happened in-between that is incredible. These coins help not to forget.

Peter
Agreed, Peter.

Bruce
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