Author Topic: Troubled coins  (Read 23152 times)

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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #255 on: March 23, 2021, 04:15:27 PM »
Did you manage to get any history about the coin itself, CTX? A previous owner or where and when it was  found or anything else?

Auctions houses usually don't have this information, or if they do won't share it with a buyer. The best chance is from a private seller who is usually willing to pass on what they might know about it. I've learned a lot about these coins and made some good contacts by asking them.

Bruce
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Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #256 on: March 23, 2021, 11:30:18 PM »
It was from a private seller on an online auction site. I have asked the provenance question, but no response yet.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #257 on: March 24, 2021, 11:38:57 AM »
Surprisingly, I've found over the years that nearly all sellers respond to my request for information. I'm actually mildly surprised when they don't, but do understand why.

 Most of the time sellers have acquired the coins from a job lot or boot sale and have nothing more to add. Other times, they have an interesting story to tell which makes it worth while to ask. I've made a good friend that way with a man in Belfast a dozen years ago who once sold me some coins.

Bruce
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Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #258 on: March 24, 2021, 12:39:42 PM »
Hi Bruce, the seller has replied. He obtained it in the 1970’s in Belfast. I'll forward you more details.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #259 on: March 24, 2021, 12:58:13 PM »
I bought this 1696 William lll Crown from a serious collector and researcher in London who had worked hard to decipher the meaning of the symbolism on the reverse. He came to a tenative conclusion that it was a show of support for the Jacobite Assassination Plot of 1696. The goal of the plot of course was to replace the Protestant King William with the deposed Catholic King James ll who had lost the throne in the Glourious Revolution of 1688/1690.

He referred to the symbol as a "balance or scale" countermark. The center bar connects the shield of Ireland on the left with the shield of Scotland on the right and runs horizontally through the center shield. The center shield is known as the Nassau Horse and is the family symbol of William's House of Orange-Nassau.

The "pivot" point (an X?) looks to be a deliberate defacement of that shield. The date of the coin may be a deliberate choice or not, but suggests at least that his interpretation may be correct. I feel that its either that or simply a dismissal of William's legitimacy. In any case it seems to be a political statement. Your comments are most appreciated. Thanks.

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #260 on: March 24, 2021, 01:06:30 PM »
Interestingly, the seller included an old collector's card that came with the coin when he bought it several years earlier. The right side handwriting isn't visible because of the attached envelope, but it notes that the coin was acquired from an Edinburgh, Scotland collector named Lee Brown in Sept., 1937 for 3 shillings. An interesting note of provenance.

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #261 on: March 24, 2021, 04:54:39 PM »
This 1743 Halfpenny was listed on Etsy a couple of years ago, though I just noticed it recently. Though the symbolism isn't the same as on the 1696 Crown, it has some similarities.

 The center line with the X on the portrait is an obvious defacement, but the B inside the diamond shape and arrow point don't bring anything to mind. If you cut off the arrow at the X then it might represent a broad arrow, a symbol that has long been used to mark Crown property. The B might have been added at a later time but there's no way to know for sure.

I'm posting this one here in the hopes that someone can identify the symbolism.

Thanks,

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #262 on: March 24, 2021, 07:58:31 PM »
The way you positioned it, the symbolism says "don't pull the B down", but if you turn the coin 45° clockwise, it says (insert upper class British accent here) "don't send Britons to fight those unwashed-ingtonian rebels in our American colonies. Hire Hessians!

A jolly good idea that was. Rather.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #263 on: April 02, 2021, 12:49:13 PM »
The Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR) was a British Army regiment formed in 1970 to "defend the life or property in Northern Ireland against armed attack or sabotage."

 The UDR replaced the Ulster Special Constabulary (USC) an official paramilitary force created in 1920 for the same purpose. Though the USC was divided into three groups, the A, B, and C-Specials, each  tasked with a different mission, it was the B-Specials who became the primary defense and control unit.

Initially, the UDR cobsisted of part-time volunteers recruited in Northern Ireland. It was meant to represent the demographics of Northern Ireland, and initially it did. About 18% were Catholics and the remainder Protestant. Many of the members came from the ranks of former USC units primarily populated by Unionists. After the introduction of internment in 1972 many Catholic recruits dropped out in protest and the remaining members numbered only about 3%.

Because of this disparity in numbers and the charge that they treated both sides unevenly, the UDR came under intense criticism especially from Nationalists. Their reputation didn't improve when it was later learned that some UDR members were involved in what was known as the Glenanne Gang, an informal alliance of Ulster Loyalists. The group consisted of UDR, RUC, and UVF volunteers and terrorized Catholics in Counties Armagh and Tyrone between 1972 and 1980. As many as 200 civilian deaths have been attributed to them.

The UDR came to an end in 1992 when they were merged with the Royal Irish Rangers to form the Royal Irish Regiment of the British Army. During their short 22 year history the UDR became the largest infantry regiment in the British Army with 11 battalions, and the longest on active service of any other.

This coin was acquired from a collector in Bexley, Kent in 2012. The coin is a 1959 Irish Florin and is the only example of a UDR stamp I've ever seen.

Bruce
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Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #264 on: April 02, 2021, 04:10:10 PM »
Interesting coin and a great write up.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #265 on: April 02, 2021, 06:27:34 PM »
Thanks, CTX. As with everything in Irish politics, the UDR / USC stories are much more complicated and sometimes contradictory. I try to summarize as much as possible with the best information I can find.

Now I have to work on "waking up" the salmon. ???

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #266 on: April 02, 2021, 06:38:57 PM »
These two coins from my collection were dug by an English metal-detectorist near Holyhead, Wales seven or eight years ago. They were part of a small group he dug on the beach near the Senna Line ferry terminal over a period of several years.

These are hard to read due to corrosion, especially the Irish penny, but both read "USC // B Men." The B-Specials were often referred to as B Men. USC is of course Ulster Special Constabulary.

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #267 on: April 02, 2021, 09:07:44 PM »
The penny looks dry. Maybe it was found in acidic soil, like forest land? It will benefit from an extended (say a month, but two months is fine also) olive oil soak. Wash without rubbing or using soap and dry really well to neutralise. This will turn the pink, exposed metal into satiny chocolate brown and it will take off some of the green, without doing harm to the patina.

Choose low acid olive oil. Greek is best but quasi-impossible to find. Italian will do. Try to avoid Spanish olive oil. Read what's on the label, many Italian sounding names printed large hide oil sourced in Spain according to the small letters and if there is no country mentioned it's sure to be Spanish. Preferable to cooking in butter, but no good for metal.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #268 on: April 03, 2021, 11:46:41 AM »
In today’s post. Found by a dealer in Co. Galway whilst sorting through coins.

Eire 1964 florin. Countermark UDA


Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #269 on: April 03, 2021, 12:03:50 PM »
Thanks for posting it, CTX.

Bruce
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