Author Topic: Troubled coins  (Read 23162 times)

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Offline FosseWay

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #195 on: February 06, 2021, 09:14:39 AM »
A note on terminology. Mal rightly queried what I wrote about "Ireland" using the new Barnyard series. Of course, I meant that part of the island which today forms the Republic of Ireland, the 26 counties. Throughout its existence, Northern Ireland has used sterling, regardless of what the rest of the island has used.

"Ireland" or in Irish "Éire" is the official short name of the present-day state whose long form is the Republic of Ireland or Poblacht na hÉireann. Since 1922 de facto and since the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 de jure, the Republic and its predecessor have controlled 26 of the 32 counties on the island. The remaining 6 form Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom. But for most of that time, the Irish constitution has officially claimed the entire island as national territory, while in practice accepting the status quo. Officially, therefore, in the period we're talking about, Ireland the state and Ireland the island are synonymous. Compare the way that the People's Republic of China regards Taiwan.

But the name and status of the independent portion of Ireland has also changed over time. In 1922 the 26 counties were granted independence as a Dominion of the British Empire (i.e. the same status as Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa). The king was still nominal head of state, and Ireland had a governor-general appointed by the Crown until 1937. To reflect this state of almost-independence, the state was called the Irish Free State / Saorstát Éireann.

In 1937 the current constitution was enacted, which created the office of President / Uachtarán and changed the official name of the state to Éire - we see this change on the coins. However, the supremacy of the British monarch was not officially removed until 1948, so the constitutional status of Ireland in those 11 years is slightly woolly. From 1949, the current names and status of the Republic of Ireland have been recognised by all relevant parties.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #196 on: February 06, 2021, 12:06:53 PM »
Your post fills in some of the gaps in the history that I wasn't aware of, FosseWay. Many thanks for the informative write-up. :)

Bruce
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Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #197 on: February 09, 2021, 01:34:11 PM »
In today’s DNW auction. Eire 1969 10p, countermark VVF.

Is this a UVF mis-struck as VVF, or is the first V intentional, maybe Vanguard related?

(Photo screenshot from the online catalogue)

Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #198 on: February 09, 2021, 02:43:17 PM »
I've seen well over 300 unique slogans, acronyms, and combinations of each, but not VVF. It may be a mistake, CTX, but I'll look into it.

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #199 on: February 09, 2021, 03:02:48 PM »
I can't find anything on VVF. A single V stands for Vanguard and two next to each other means Vanguard Victory, but no VVF. It must be stamped in error. Sorry I couldn't help.

Bruce
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Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #200 on: February 09, 2021, 03:27:50 PM »
Thank you Bruce.

On the subject of errors, have you seen 1690 with the 1 stamped inverted ?

Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #201 on: February 09, 2021, 05:42:52 PM »
No I haven't, but I posted a 50p in Post #58 stamped IRA / 81. The 1 is inveted and is apparently some sort of a protest of the Thatcher government. 1981 was the year of the Long Kesh hunger strike. I'm not exactly sure of the meaning of the inverted number, but it seems to have some purpose.

Bruce
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Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #202 on: February 11, 2021, 02:24:10 AM »
Reference the coin countermarked E in reply #171.

I have come across an old auction listing which included a coin countermarked EA. (Link below)

Maybe E has the same meaning on both coins?

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/28042da8fe3cdb5bf372699d57423a0f/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/special-sale-of-the-entire-contents-of-a-midlands-georgian/

Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #203 on: February 11, 2021, 04:24:29 PM »
Opinions on this 1963 florin please.

The 1690 marking is not stamped or engraved. It has been written on the coin, but it does not appear to be paint, ink, or marker pen.

Could it possibly have been marked using an acid? Would an acid leave this colour mark on cupro-nickel?

Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #204 on: February 11, 2021, 04:38:08 PM »
Reference the coin countermarked E in reply #171.

I have come across an old auction listing which included a coin countermarked EA. (Link below)

Maybe E has the same meaning on both coins?

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/28042da8fe3cdb5bf372699d57423a0f/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/special-sale-of-the-entire-contents-of-a-midlands-georgian/

I've come across this auction listing before. I remember it because of the EA that I couldn't decipher at the time. The only thing I thought that E might stand for was Elizabeth, but couldn't think of anything for A. The style is the same as your E coin so might be somehow related.

I'll look into it further and check with a man I know in Belfast who is very good with these acronyms. Maybe we'll get lucky, CTX.

Bruce

It's interesting that the coin is in with a bunch of obvious Troubles pieces. Also interesting that it's stamped on a 1969 Florin or 10p...can't tell which. These were the favorite coins used for counterstamping political issues. It then seems likely that the EA is political in nature.
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #205 on: February 11, 2021, 04:58:50 PM »
Opinions on this 1963 florin please.

The 1690 marking is not stamped or engraved. It has been written on the coin, but it does not appear to be paint, ink, or marker pen.

Could it possibly have been marked using an acid? Would an acid leave this colour mark on cupro-nickel?

My first thought was engraver's ink, but without seeing the coin in-hand it's just a guess. I know a man who does a lot of counterstamping with modern slogans and always paint-fills his design and lettering. You say it's not paint, so that leaves that out.

Ink would be durable enough and the surface of the letters looks as though something was applied with a cotton swab or something similar. If you have access to the coin is the numbering smooth to the touch or rough?

Acid marked doesn't seem likely as it doesn't look corroded.

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #206 on: February 11, 2021, 07:16:21 PM »
It's just bad lighting. The date is engraved with a rather large diameter drill. The drill marks are quite clear in the enlargement.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #207 on: February 11, 2021, 07:44:56 PM »
Peter, it is not engraved. The date has been applied on the surface of the coin.

Bruce, I do have the coin. The numbering has a slightly rough feel, and appears to be made up of lots of little dabs. I am not familiar with engravers ink so I don’t know what that would look like if dabbed on to a smooth surface.

I will try to take better photos, maybe one angled across the numbers if my iPad will focus on it.

Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #208 on: February 11, 2021, 08:16:44 PM »
A different angle. There is bleed from whatever the writing medium is, visible around the first e in eire.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #209 on: February 11, 2021, 08:48:28 PM »
I see the bleed now. Then it was a thin liquid rather than paint that leaves a different looking residue. I've seen sloppily painted counterstamps that had bleed and it didn't look like this.

I thought I'd post two coins from my collection that have a similar look, though the stamp...RIRA / Real Irish Republican Army...is scratched into the surface. They have either darkened over time or were rubbed with a dark substance to make the graffiti more apparent.

Another interesting thing about these two coins is that they look very similar. The position of RIRA, running right at a downward angle, the crudely applied scratches, and the denomination ( British 50p).
Surprisingly, I bought these two examples from different sellers in the same city (Sunderland) but 3 years apart. Both also told me that they had acquired the coins in change in London in the early to mid 2000s. I call these sister coins as it appears that they were both made by the same person or group.

Bruce
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