Author Topic: Troubled coins  (Read 23121 times)

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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #165 on: December 10, 2020, 09:21:29 PM »
The kerning of the Pearse mural hurts my eyes.
Nothing pretty about that mural...especially the blood coming from the bottom of the word Peace.

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #166 on: January 12, 2021, 06:17:06 PM »
Starting in post #102 we had a discussion of the clover leaf symbol used on these political issues. Here's an older image struck on the reverse of an 1883 Florin...the oldest coin to date. This was offered by Whyte's in a recent auction, but didn't sell. I would have bid on it but wasn't aware of the auction until after the fact.

Bruce
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Offline malj1

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #167 on: January 12, 2021, 10:43:11 PM »
You should have asked about it, some auction houses sell unsold lots at 10% under estimate.
Malcolm
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #168 on: January 13, 2021, 01:07:51 AM »
I have done that in the past but had no success. I did go online earlier to see if I could find the auction the coin was in but haven't found it yet. I'm almost positive it was Whyte's in Dublin that listed it. I'll have to spend a little more time looking

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #169 on: January 20, 2021, 01:06:21 PM »
These two coins are part of the Belfast Collection and reference the Na Fianna (NF) or the youth wing of the IRA. Also known as the Na Fianna Eireann (Warriors of Ireland) the group is as old as the IRA itself and stretches back to the First World War and the Irish Cuvil War of the early 1920's. The two coins are both 2-shillings dated 1951 and 1963. Apparently, the initials were struck with a center punch rather than a die. Collector's notes are as follows:

 "NF" on two separate coins: 19/ 12/ 77 both given in change at CC shop in BMY. C asked if I would take them in my change
 as that f****** eejit was out the back hammering away at all his change. I think he meant S who worked for him doing odd
 jobs. I told him aye why not and sure if he wanted to give me more I'd be happy to accept them. Stood and had a smoke and a yarn with C and he told me he was worried about S as he was turning into a super provie and had already joined the Fianna."

Additional notes from Seller in way of explanation:

""NF" refers to Na Fianna the youth wing of the IRA. CC was most likely Charles Cosgrave who owned a small shop in BMY Ballymurphy. I have no idea who S was but my father has a later entry in his notes "Young S was blown up by his own bomb yesterday." He doesn't name S. Super provie is a mocking term that is used to describe someone who is overly eager in their beliefs. There are variations, superprod, supertaig, and so on."

Bruce




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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #170 on: January 20, 2021, 01:09:39 PM »
A Na Fianna mural on Beechmount Ave, in The Falls, West Belfast.

Bruce
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Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #171 on: January 30, 2021, 07:08:45 PM »
Hi. New to this forum and new to countermarked coins.

I’ve just purchased a 1969 Irish 10p which has been struck on both the harp and salmon with a large upper case E. Has anyone seen this countermark before or know what the E represents?

Also just purchased a 1963 Irish Florin with UDA stamped deeply across the obverse. Any comments welcome.


Offline Figleaf

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #172 on: January 30, 2021, 07:26:59 PM »
No idea what the E stands for (Eire?), but UDA is the Ulster Defense Association.

See also reply #1 on the first page of this thread.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #173 on: January 30, 2021, 08:39:57 PM »
Thanks for your reply Peter.

The E marked coin came from a collectables dealer in Co. Antrim. He didn’t know what the E represented, but suggested maybe Elizabeth II?

I’m wary of buying a fake but thought the UDA marked coin looked genuine enough so took a chance.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #174 on: January 30, 2021, 08:54:01 PM »
I am not an expert on these c/s. Wait for brandm24 to react. He knows his stuff.

Afterthought: E could be for Erin. I think Elizabeth would have been indicated with E II as on the letterboxes.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline FosseWay

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #175 on: January 30, 2021, 10:14:51 PM »
I am not an expert on these c/s. Wait for brandm24 to react. He knows his stuff.

Afterthought: E could be for Erin. I think Elizabeth would have been indicated with E II as on the letterboxes.

Peter

My gut feeling is that you're more likely to get Nationalist graffiti on British coins and Loyalist on Irish ones, so if it's Troubles-related I doubt the E is for Éire.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #176 on: January 30, 2021, 11:22:55 PM »
Thanks for your reply Peter.

The E marked coin came from a collectables dealer in Co. Antrim. He didn’t know what the E represented, but suggested maybe Elizabeth II?

I’m wary of buying a fake but thought the UDA marked coin looked genuine enough so took a chance.

Welcome to WoC and this thread, CTX.

I know the dealer who sold you the "E" coin as I thought about buying it at one point myself. I didn't because I wasn't sure of the meaning. It could stand for Elizabeth, but the only stamp that I'm familiar with "naming" her is an "E:R" (Elizabeth Rex) struck on an Irish 10p. I think it'a a Loyalist show of support for her because if it were meant to be derogatory it would likely have been struck over her portrait on an English coin. Standard for Nationalist issues.
My gut feeling is that you're more likely to get Nationalist graffiti on British coins and Loyalist on Irish ones, so if it's Troubles-related I doubt the E is for Éire.

I doubt the E is for Eire either. While FosseWay is right about most Nationalist stamps being on British coins and Loyalist issues on Irish coins, that's not always the case. Reviewing data I've collected over many years on these political issues I've found that Nationalist slogans are struck on Irish coins appx. 17% of the time, while Loyalist slogans appear on British coins only about 7% of the time.

BTW, your UDA stamp looks genuine to me. I wouldn't question it at all.

Bruce


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Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #177 on: January 30, 2021, 11:31:42 PM »
I neglected to post the pic of the E:R stamp. The coin is in the collection of the Fitzwilliam Museum at Cambridge if I remember correctly.

I just thought of something after I studied your picture of the E coin. It's struck on a 1969 Irish 10p. It was the commonest coin by far used to convey these messages...nearly 15% of ALL counterstamps are struck on this date and denomination. Makes you think more along the lines of it being a Troubles issue.

Bruce
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Offline CTX3030

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #178 on: January 31, 2021, 12:21:38 AM »
Thank you FosseWay for your input.

And thank you Bruce for your detailed answers which add to my very limited knowledge.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #179 on: January 31, 2021, 11:23:45 AM »
My pleasure. If you need anything else post here or PM me.

Bruce
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