Rupee

[Guillaume Hermann]

Hello,
Can you please identify this rupee? Silver, 11,4 g, 21 mm. Thank you!
https://www.numismatique.com/forum/topic/22785-a4170/#comment-112233

[saro]

Mughal / Aurangzeb Alamgir
rupee of Khambayat mint
AH ? (off) /  RY. 1? (could be 17?)

[Guillaume Hermann]

Thanks a lot Saro!

[Guillaume Hermann]

Could the AH be another year than the first year of his reign?

[saro]

Could the AH be another year than the first year of his reign?

The 1st regnal year is written "ahd" and never with the  digit "1" , so it's 1x (10 to 19, likely 17 ?)

[Figleaf]

I concur (FWIW) that 17 is by far the most likely. It might possibly be 14, but  I think I see the beginning of a second upward stroke at the bottom of the character. If so, it can't be 14.

@Guillaume Hermann: don't forget the cross-references to Zeno and Numista. See here. Thank you.

Peter

[Guillaume Hermann]

I wanted to ask if the regnal year, probably 17, is surely 17 years after the beginning of the reign (1675?), or if it could be 17 years after the creation of this type.

[Guillaume Hermann]

I concur (FWIW) that 17 is by far the most likely. It might possibly be 14, but  I think I see the beginning of a second upward stroke at the bottom of the character. If so, it can't be 14.

@Guillaume Hermann: don't forget the cross-references to Zeno and Numista. See here. Thank you.

Peter

I can't find it on Zeno, and the coin with the same denomination in Numista in not the same : no flower on the reverse https://fr.numista.com/catalogue/pieces53014.html

[Figleaf]

Zeno 215634, 227755, 53718, 215634

In theory, the regnal year 17 is 17 years after the beginning of the reign. In practice, that's 17 years of the islamic calendar after the date of accession as chosen by the emperor. This was not always the same as the factual date of succession. Successions were often decided by a civil war between siblings and the new emperor might choose a date of succession right after the date of his father's death. In addition, the date of succession would normally not be the first day of the year on the islamic calendar, so one regnal year would normally cover parts of two calendar years. For short-lived pretenders, "reigning perhaps a few weeks or months, there is a smaller dating window. If that's not enough, there was frequent muling. As the date is on one side and the regnal year on the opposite site, there could well be an impossible pair of dates on a coin.

It is best not to conclude what the date is from the regnal year or vice versa.

Peter

[asm]

To me the AH dare reads 1086 - absolute bottom of the obverse. This would make it RY 18 or 19. The 17 on most coins that I have seen has the 7 engraved slanting either to the right or the left, so I am curious as to what the RY actually is.

Peter's explanation about the RY dating is perfect. In case of Aurangzeb Alamgir, he was advised not to have the Khutba read in his name for almost 3 years after he deposed his father (Shah Jahan) and took control of the empire. The initial coins of Aurangzeb from quite a few mints have very confusing AH / RY combinations in the first few years of his reign and then they are adjusted for the actual time he took control of the empire.

Amit

I am unable to copy the image to my computer and hence unable to mark the date.

[Figleaf]

I am unable to copy the image to my computer and hence unable to mark the date.

On a Mac, right-click the image and select "Save image as..." or any other option that will achieve that. On a PC, your mileage may vary.

Peter

[Guillaume Hermann]

Zeno 215634, 227755, 53718, 215634

Thanks Peter but I do not know how you succeeeded. I searched with the keyword "Aurangzeb" and found 20 coins, none from Khambayat.
Thanks to all for your explanations!
1086AG would be 1676AD?

[asm]

Peter, the issue is strange. I regularly download images using the right click. However, for this image, it downloads and then I get a message which says "File moved or missing". Its never happened before.....

Amit

[asm]

Just struck me ........copy - pasted the image and ....

Amit

PS: Under higher magnification I am wondering if I am correct on the last digit of the AH date.

[Figleaf]

@asm It's all Putin's fault and if it isn't, it is caused either by China, COVID-19 or both. I sent you the picture by email.

@Guillaume Hermann Zeno's search engine is not self-evident at all, but once you can handle it, it is quite helpful. Two common pitfalls: first thing to do is to select a metal. Second thing to do is to make sure you delete search terms from a previous search if you kept the window open. Try using the free search field for the name of the ruler. Look at where his name appears in the description and put the ruler's name in the right place, freeing up the free search field for other details. Only add a mint if there are too many hits and don't bother with a denomination or date (keep in mind that the hits are sorted by date). Keep adding details until you have a manageable number of hits.

If you know neither the ruler nor the mint, use metal, and a range of weight plus a graphical element (e.g. "triangle" or "deer") in the free search field to get a feel for where to look and replace the graphical element with firmer details.

It's very much a hit-or-miss operation, but with experience, it won't take much time and it's worth it.

Peter