Semirechie proto coins

[Pellinore]

Just acquired these two remarkable coins from the easternmost part of Kazakhstan, just west of nowadays China: Semirechie (Semirech'e), the Land of Seven Rivers. Are they spin-offs from cash coins?

When they came in, I was amazed by the size of the large one. Seller didn't mention weight or diameter. The smaller one was identified as 'Kamyshev nr. 9' but that doesn't help much. The Zeno coin with this identification is rather different. 

The large coin has a diameter of 32 mm, it's 7 mm thick and it weighs 18.65 gr.
The small coin has a diameter of 22 mm, it's 2.5 mm thick and weighs 4.56 gr.

-- Paul

[Figleaf]

Amazing, Pellenore. If I'd seen them out of context I'd have taken the large one for a Celtic rouelle and the small one for a 16th century loom ring. I thought Kamyshev was about those imitation cash coins coming out of Central Asia. Got one of those coins in my collection and am mighty proud of it. I have seen claims before of un-inscribed rings being local coins. I don't - by very far - know enough of the local excavations to have an opinion on them. TFS.

Is that serious about Semirechie coming from 7 rivers or a Russian pipe dream? Seven rivers in modern Russian, but written in latin characters would be something like "si'em ri'eki" (семь реки).

Peter

[Pellinore]

I suppose these were found in hoard circumstances, not as part of a broken early modern machine (but I have an open mind). Both are undoubtedly copperish, it's not iron.
The smaller types are known with various numbers of depressions in the circle: 8, 11, 13. Here on Zeno is a category of the anepigraphic 'cash imitations'. And here's a short overview over various Semirechie types.
Like you, I'd like to know more of this.

-- Paul

[Figleaf]

Indeed. Great links both. The one to Zeno is convincing. I have confidence in the competence of hfrans. Didn't know the other one yet. Nice illustrations of Kamyshev types. Most appetising!

Peter