World of Coins

Modern Asian coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens => Indian subcontinent: Mughal, Princely states and colonial (1526-1947) => Mughal central government => Topic started by: Figleaf on May 31, 2010, 02:17:13 AM

Title: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Figleaf on May 31, 2010, 02:17:13 AM
The extravagant wealth at the time of the Great Mughals is also reflected in their coinage. The Mughal emperors of India have the reputation that they struck the largest gold coin of the world, viz.: a huge coin of almost 12 kilos gold with a diameter of 210 mm, with the value of 1000 tola (tola is a weight unit of 11.98 gm., a one mohur weighs 10.95 gm.).

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=74.0;attach=8847;image)
(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=74.0;attach=8848;image)
Jahangir (AH 1014-1037/AD 1605-1627), gold mohur of 1000 Tola (11,935. 8 gm., dia. 210 mm) struck at Dar al-Khilafat Agra (Seat of the Caliphate, Agra) in the year AH1022/regnal year 8 (1613/14).

On 9 November 1987 this gigantic coin was offered for sale by the auction house Habsburg, Feldman S.A, Geneva, together with an equally unique piece of a 100 mohur, with a weight of almost 1,100 grams and a diameter of  96 mm. For this auction a special catalogue was printed exclusively for these two gigantic coins. The bids for 1000 tola piece ran up to 16 millions Dutch guilders (€ 7,260,500, =), but the limit (according to some, approx. US$ 20 million) was not met and the owner (according to some reports, the Nizam of Hyderabad) withdrew the piece and the huge coin unfortunately disappeared again into a Swiss locker where it has been stored long before World War II.

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=74.0;attach=8849;image)
(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=74.0;attach=8850;image)
Shah Jahan (AH 1037-1068/AD 1628-1658), gold coin of 100 Mohur (1,094, 5 gm, dia. 96 mm.) struck at Dar al-Sultanat Lahore (Seat of the Sultanate, Lahore) in the year AH 1048/regnal year 12 (1639).

These beautiful and extremely rare gigantic coins, with very refined calligraphy and workmanship, are the numismatic top pieces from the period of the Great Mughals. They did not serve as currency, of course, although they have a denomination, but as gold ingots similar to the gold bars stored nowadays in the lockers of the central banks. They were struck in multiples of the current weight of the mohur or rupee, or on the weight of the tola, and stored in the imperial treasure, where they were piled up by denomination. It is known from several sources that such huge coins were manufactured.

Dozens of references are known, showing that rulers, ambassadors of friendly nations and other dignitaries, were honoured with such huge gold pieces, at the occasion of their visit to the court of the Great Mughal. For instance, on 19 Farwardin, regnal year 8 (1613) Jahangir wrote in his diary: I have presented a gold mohur of 1000 tolas, which is called a Kaubab-i-talai (rising star), to Yadgar-Ali, the ambassador of the ruler of Iran.

Until the above giagantic gold coins surfaced in 1987, only some five mohur-pieces of Akbar (KM #116.1) and Jahangir (KM#188.1) were known, as well as a lead cast of a 200 mohur piece of Shah Jahan (until then the largest gold coin in the world). A silver coin of 200 rupees of the Mughal emperor Aurangzeb Alamgir was also known.

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=74.0;attach=8851;image)
Shah Jahan (AH 1037-1068/AD 1628-1658), gypsum cast of the gold 200 mohur, struck at drone al-Khilafat Shahjanabad (seat of the Kalifaat, Delhi) in the year AH 1064 (1653/54).

It is documented that Captain Peter Pigon received such a 200 mohur coin from the emperor. He made a very detailed description. It was 136 mm in diameter, he wrote. He also mentioned that he had already prepared an exact model in lead of it. Nowadays several lead and gypsums casts are known. The  oldest documented lead copy is in the Hunterian collection in Glasgow since 1783. The original of the 200 mohur still existed in 1792, but ever since its whereabouts are unknown and it is very likely that it has been melted in the course of time for other purposes.

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=74.0;attach=8844;image)
Illustration of the 200 rupee coin; G.J. Kher in Monarchae Mogolo-Indica vel Mogolis Magni Aurenk Szeb Numisma, etc., Leipzig 1725, published only eighteen years after Aurangzeb's death.

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=74.0;attach=8845;image)
(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=74.0;attach=8846;image)
Aurangzeb Alamgir (AH1068-1118/AD 1658-1707), silver 200 rupee (2,275 gm, dia. 118 mm.) struck at Dar al-Khalifat Shahjahanabad (Seat of the Caliphate, Delhi) in the year AH 1083/regnal year 15 (1672).

In 1712 this coin was already present in the Ducal Coin cabinet at Gotha (Germany), until it was sold in 1930,  presumably to the Nawab of Bahawalpur. By the end of last century it surfaced again in London. I had the pleasure to personally inspect it and keep it in my hands, however, the price of around 60.000 pounds was a bit to much for an average collector.

Unfortunately on its way back to India and due to some carelessness with the luggage, the bag which contained the 200 rupee coin got stolen at Frankfurt Airport.

Whether this numismatic and historically extremely interesting piece, which remained safe and well for such a long time in the Coin cabinet at Gotha, still exists is now very much the question.

It had been known that the Mughal rulers had very precious coins struck, but except for 5 mohur pieces, none of the unique examples, as shown above, are represented in any public collection and we therefore must be content with photographs and in some cases, with lead or gypsum casts.

Oesho.
Title: Re: Gigantic coins
Post by: Prosit on May 31, 2010, 02:18:30 AM
So these are from you private collection right?   ;)

Dale
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Abhay on May 31, 2010, 03:57:38 AM
A little correction here - 1 Tola = 11.664 Grams.

Oesho, a really interesting and UNIQUE article. You have to agree that everything about Mughal Period was Royal, be it their Jewellery, Coins, Monuments, Art etc.

Abhay

(tola is a weight unit of 11.98 gm., a one mohur weighs 10.95 gm.).

Oesho.
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Figleaf on May 31, 2010, 09:19:31 AM
I read this a long time ago and may have remembered it wrongly, but I believe the Mughal was the only person who could inherit. This enabled the Mughal to be extremely generous, as there was no guarantee that sons would inherit from fathers and indeed, largesse was expected. It was expected that as the Mughal travelled, silver would be distributed to onlookers. Actually, the silver was hollow silver almonds (never seen those). It makes sense that higher placed people would get more lavish gifts. Nevertheless, such gifts as these look extravagant to me but, as engipress put it, "royal".

Of course I had never even heard of one of these, let alone seen one. Holding one, as Oesho did, must have been extraordinary. A curse on the thieves who could destroy an artifact like this.

Peter
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: akona20 on May 31, 2010, 09:25:22 AM
The more I read and see the more I am enjoying my new field of collecting and learning.
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: asm on May 31, 2010, 12:04:41 PM
I had seen a picture of one such coin with a dealer in Hyderabad who told me that that was the picture of a coin which was gifted by Aurengzeb to the forefathers of the Nizams for the help he was provided during a difficult campaign in the Deccan when he was surrounded and it would otherwise have been difficult for him to escape.

Amit
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Oesho on May 31, 2010, 01:25:04 PM
Quote
A little correction here - 1 Tola = 11.664 Grams.
Dear Abhay, You are correct that since 1833 the Tola was fixed by the British East India Company at 180 Troy grains = 11.66 g., which remained so after.
However before 1833 the weight of the Tola differed from time and place.
During the period of the Sultans of Dehli, it was equal to 170.3 grains. The same was the weight of their gold and silver coins, but they were never called Tola; they were known as Tankah. During the Mughal period the Tola was higher in weight, about 185 grains = 11.98 g.
This is also correctly reflected by the weight of the 1000 Tola piece of Jahangir, which weighs exactly 11,935.8 g. /1000 = 11.935 g. Which is about the correct for the weight of the contemporary Tola.

That the piece is a mohur of one thousand Tola, is engraved on the top and left margin on the reverse, where you may be able to read: zi faiz-i-didan-i-muhr-i-hazar tolach ash / Hazar bar bibalad zi-zauq nur-i-nazar (Through the bounty of seeing his [or the sight of his] 1000 tolah muhar [stamped coin], the light of vision increases thousand-fold in ecstasy.) 
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Abhay on May 31, 2010, 02:37:12 PM
Thanks a lot, Oesho, for the correction.
I think, in the earlier period, when the coins were hand made and struck, some grains here and there really didn't matter, as it would have been impossible to accurately cut the blank for the coin to the exact standard weight. Maybe, this is the reason that you find some variataion in the weight of the Mughal and Indian Princely States Mohurs.

Abhay
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Oesho on May 31, 2010, 03:06:31 PM
Gold smiths and Saraffs were usually extremely accurate in regard of weight and fineness of the precious metal used for coinage, but to their own advantage. Coins had a theoretic weight, but very often they were found to be slightly underweight, this minimal difference is known as the remedy of the weight. As long the weight of the coin was within the accepted tolerance, there used to be no problem.
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Figleaf on May 31, 2010, 03:16:30 PM
The same thing happened in European mints, of course. An added plot was that mint masters would sometimes (often?) sell their production to business friends, so that they could find and re-melt any heavy coins, while passing on the lighter coins.

However, I often got the impression that in India, coins went by weight, especially in large payments. This would also explain the lack of edge protection and the circles and circular legends, defining the size of the coin, so prominent on European coins. If so, why make coins lighter?

Peter
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Overlord on June 01, 2010, 04:52:17 PM
How do you strike a nearly 12 kg coin and get a clear, reasonably uniform impression? Multiple strikes, elephant  ???
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: asm on June 02, 2010, 04:17:05 AM
How do you strike a nearly 12 kg coin and get a clear, reasonably uniform impression? Multiple strikes, elephant  ???
I do not know how they did it but, if they could bulid the Taj with stones hauled from Rajasthan and the Qutub Minar long before that, they would have had some engineering excellence - I guess.

Amit
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Figleaf on June 02, 2010, 08:32:32 AM
Good question. I don't know what technique was used to strike them.

The best available European technique at the time would have been a reinforced screw press. The screw press would break if the coin or medal was to large and thick: rather than the dies being driven into the metal, the two pieces of metal would tear wedges in the wooden construction. The screw press would be reinforced with heavy beams to give it more resistance against the die and flan. Though this would increase the potential weight of the flan, it could not be increased forever. In addition, large flans would have to be struck repeatedly for a good impression, risking a double impression.

My guess is that this technique was not good enough to strike a 12 kilogram coin. I have speculated before that Indians used heated dies. If so, that would have helped considerably, but I am still not sure that it can be done with such a heavy coin. Another possibility is that these pieces were not struck, but cast. This would explain other remarkable characteristics of these coins: perfectly centered, flan of exactly the right size and weight, even impression at border and centre. Therefore, this is my preferred theory for the moment.

Peter
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Overlord on June 06, 2010, 05:00:49 AM
Another possibility is that these pieces were not struck, but cast. This would explain other remarkable characteristics of these coins: perfectly centered, flan of exactly the right size and weight, even impression at border and centre. Therefore, this is my preferred theory for the moment.

Peter
Oh, so all I need to do is to take them out of my Swiss locker and do a ping test.  :D
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Figleaf on June 06, 2010, 03:42:30 PM
Sure! Or speak to Rent-an-Elephant and try out that theory :). I am sure there's enough gold in the vaults of the RBI for a good test run. Or maybe there are other theories on this interesting question?

Peter
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Oesho on June 06, 2010, 09:56:34 PM
Dear Peter, The gigantic coins were not cast! They were definitely struck. If you enlarge, for instance, the pictures of the 1000 Tola piece of which I sent you the images, you may observe some effects of double striking. We can all guess the way they may have done it, but technically it was done by some kind of hammering. Even when the planchet was heated, it no doubt, required a tremendous amount of energy to impress an object of 21 cm in diameter. This can, for instance, be done the way they drive piles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pile_driver) nowadays. The Mughals had all kind of military equipment. So it would not be that difficult to imagine that they may have had such a kind of ‘pile driving’ equipment with a heavy (steel)block, in between two guide poles, falling from some height on the dies. It would be novelty in minting, but not impossible. The resonance, caused by such a falling block, may account for the double striking effect, which you may observe on the obverse and reverse of the coin. I have no written evidence found anywhere how they actually did it, but it may just be a possibility.
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Salvete on June 07, 2010, 11:19:51 AM
How do you strike a nearly 12 kg coin and get a clear, reasonably uniform impression? Multiple strikes, elephant  ???

  I remember a lecture by a member of the ONS, probably at the Fitzwilliam Musem in Cambridge UK, over 15 years ago, when it was explained how the strike was made.  As best as I can remember, this is what was said.

  Apparently there is no way to do it in one go.  Separate dies were prepared for each bit of the coin and the  part-dies were carefully placed and struck separately.  That is why most of the coins are the 'square area' type and similar, where clear divisions could be made between one part-die and its neighbours without the join being too obvious.  We were told that on most surviving specimens a careful examination reveals the 'joins'.  The whole process of preparing flans and multiple strikes was time-consuming, but time is money, and the Great Mughals were never short of money!

  These 'coins' are art, without a doubt, and like so much great art, the surviving specimens are reportedly mostly owned by giant corporations and locked away in bank vaults.  In the treasury is where they would have spent most of their lives in Mughal times, of course, so nothing much has changed over the last 450 years.  Not what I'd do with them, but of course I shall never have any say in the matter!!!

  My memory is not perfect, so I hope I am not misleading anyone about any of it.

  Salvete
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Oesho on June 07, 2010, 01:20:08 PM
Quote
Apparently there is no way to do it in one go.  Separate dies were prepared for each bit of the coin and the  part-dies were carefully placed and struck separately.  That is why most of the coins are the 'square area' type and similar, where clear divisions could be made between one part-die and its neighbours without the join being too obvious.  We were told that on most surviving specimens a careful examination reveals the 'joins'.  The whole process of preparing flans and multiple strikes was time-consuming, but time is money, and the Great Mughals were never short of money!

Dear Salvete,
From the high resolution scans of the 1000 Tola of Jahangir, with circular legends, it is very obvious that they used one single die. A die put together by various parts would be impossible it would break into pieces immediately when hit by an hammer. Neither can it be done by patch wise stamping (central part and margins) as the design with a flowering background (so often seen on coins of Jahangir) continues all over the surface. It is an outstanding piece of calligraphical art. It must have been produced with a single die and with a large blow of kinetic energy to create even the impression of the most minute fine details. The images I have are of about 17 Mb for each obverse and reverse and are a bit to heavy to be sent by e-mail, otherwise you may come to the same conclusion. The observations of the speaker, you referred too, cannot not be true.
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Salvete on June 07, 2010, 01:36:35 PM
Thank you, Oesho.  As I said, I have no personal knowledge of these coins, and have never seen any of them.  I simply repeated what was said many years ago during a discussion of techniques used at Mughal and later Indian mints, most of which seemed to make sense then, and continues to seem reasonable now, in case it might be helpful.  Clearly it was not, so sorry to anybody who read it.  There was another error made during the talks, concerning the details of preparing steel dies, so perhaps I should have been a little less trusting in other data offered then.  Onwards and upwards.

Salvete
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: capnbirdseye on April 28, 2011, 06:31:23 PM
Looking on the other thread linked to here ( most rare coin) regarding how such coins were struck then I think the general rule with hammered coins applies in that they are raised to red heat otherwise the flan will crack, rapid cooling down applies as soon as it touches the cold lower /fixed die. Using a collar will keep the coin centred but is usually unheard of with hand made Indian coins except for Nazarana coins as it slows down the process considerably as the coin expands & then has to be knocked out.

I saw a demonstration of coin making using original dies for Elizabethan shillings many years ago & it prompted me to have a go myself.
I crudely engraved both dies with my name in a circle in English one side & Nagari on the other.
 I tested it on lead first & was well pleased & set about heating up some badly worn UK silver shillings in my forge.  D unless the metal was almost cherry red it required more than one strike & cracked the flan every time  & if the first strike didn't go deep enough then the die would move a fraction & double the image. All in all it would take incredible skill to strike a huge coin such as the 1000 mohur  but I dare say they took multiple attempts & remeltings to get it just right.  In modern machinery strikes I presume the blanks are annealed  first so they can be struck cold ?
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Overlord on September 24, 2011, 04:36:59 AM
I can no longer see the pics in Oesho's invaluable article, just red crosses. Anyone else facing this problem?
Title: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Bimat on September 24, 2011, 05:00:03 AM
Anyone else facing this problem?
No, I can see all the scans very well! 8)

Aditya
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Overlord on September 24, 2011, 05:50:20 AM
Strange, now I see them too!
Title: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Bimat on September 24, 2011, 05:31:27 PM
Sometimes that happens with me too! Seems that Indian servers have some problem with these image hosting websites.. ::)

Aditya
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: firdausei on August 28, 2012, 01:04:22 PM
A very interesting thread... made good reading... One thing about the Mughals ... they left their mark everywhere ... whether coins or the warring fields, nevertheless this was a very interesting topic ... thank you all for your contributions.
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Oesho on August 28, 2012, 04:30:01 PM
Quote
Dear Peter, The gigantic coins were not cast! They were definitely struck. If you enlarge, for instance, the pictures of the 1000 Tola piece of which I sent you the images, you may observe some effects of double striking. We can all guess the way they may have done it, but technically it was done by some kind of hammering. Even when the planchet was heated, it no doubt, required a tremendous amount of energy to impress an object of 21 cm in diameter. This can, for instance, be done the way they drive piles nowadays. The Mughals had all kind of military equipment. So it would not be that difficult to imagine that they may have had such a kind of ‘pile driving’ equipment with a heavy (steel)block, in between two guide poles, falling from some height on the dies. It would be novelty in minting, but not impossible. The resonance, caused by such a falling block, may account for the double striking effect, which you may observe on the obverse and reverse of the coin. I have no written evidence found anywhere how they actually did it, but it may just be a possibility.

Due to the reply of ‘firdausei’ to this thread, I read my remark about the possible minting technique used to produce these giant coins. This summer I was at a meeting at Kultur- und Stadthistorisches Museum in Duisburg. In this museum the preserve a really extraordinary minting machine, a falling hammer device. In my remark  above, I suggested that such a device “would be novelty in minting, but not impossible” and see here it is. The machine is still in working condition and a souvenir made on this minting device is shown below as well. A similar device, probably of some more robust size, must have been used to produce these giant Mughal coins.
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Figleaf on August 28, 2012, 04:35:05 PM
Extraordinary. It looks like the same principle as the guillotine. Not a trace of double strike on that medal (but it needs wiping off what looks like fingerprints.) I know of a similar device for cutting planchets but had never seen anything like this.

Peter
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Coinsforever on August 28, 2012, 04:36:53 PM

Due to the reply of ‘firdausei’ to this thread, I read my remark about the possible minting technique used to produce these giant coins. This summer I was at a meeting at Kultur- und Stadthistorisches Museum in Duisburg. In this museum the preserve a really extraordinary minting machine, a falling hammer device. In my remark  above, I suggested that such a device “would be novelty in minting, but not impossible” and see here it is. The machine is still in working condition and a souvenir made on this minting device is shown below as well. A similar device, probably of some more robust size, must have been used to produce these giant Mughal coins.

I guess such minting machine has been operating manually  only , instead of any electrical or mechanical force.

Products are just awesome. BTW may I request you what  could be  age of this machine  kept in museum .

Cheers ;D
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Oesho on August 28, 2012, 05:14:27 PM
Quote
BTW may I request you what  could be  age of this machine  kept in museum.

The fall hammer minting seems to have been in vogue already in the
16th  (http://www.neulussheim.de/servlet/PB/menu/2892008_l1/index.html) and
17th  (http://www.srgmbh.at/index.php/schaupraegung_muenzpraegung)century, particularly in
Germany (http://www.salzkotten.de/kultur/116040100000007141.php)
The equipment in
Duisburg (http://www.koehler-osbahr-stiftung.de/aktuell/2008fallhammer.htm) dates from the end of the 19th century.
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Coinsforever on August 29, 2012, 02:13:39 AM
The fall hammer minting seems to have been in vogue already in the
16th  (http://www.neulussheim.de/servlet/PB/menu/2892008_l1/index.html) and
17th  (http://www.srgmbh.at/index.php/schaupraegung_muenzpraegung)century, particularly in
Germany (http://www.salzkotten.de/kultur/116040100000007141.php)
The equipment in
Duisburg (http://www.koehler-osbahr-stiftung.de/aktuell/2008fallhammer.htm) dates from the end of the 19th century.

Thanks for links. 

These minting machines are quite simple to use but it's incredible that  it produce quality coins.

Cheers ;D
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Figleaf on August 29, 2012, 10:22:34 AM
I think the minting equipment in the pictures is not as old as pretended. The idea may be old, but in the 17th century, it was not possible to make precision rails in metal. Remember that Gustave Eiffel's constructions were a breakthrough in the area of building with large metal pieces. Remember that the guillotine and all types of mints were made of wood, with only the dies or knife and the small parts made of metal. Remember that the knife of the guillotine would regularly get stuck in the (wooden) rails, to the utter discomfort of the victim.

The original machines were probably fine to produce short series of large coins, but they couldn't replace a hammer or a screw press for a long series.

Peter
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: cmerc on January 10, 2014, 12:27:56 AM
Old thread I came across today.  Wonderful article by Oesho, followed by an equally animated discussion! 

There seemed to be some queries on how these large gold coins were manufactured.  Recently there was a huge Australian gold coin produced by the Perth mint (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/8852246/Worlds-largest-gold-coin-unveiled-in-Australia.html).  I wonder if similar techniques were used, despite the difference in era and technology.
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Manzikert on January 10, 2014, 12:52:31 PM
From this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1KoF8Ik24Y it was definitely cast.

Alan
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: cmerc on January 10, 2014, 06:58:16 PM
From this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1KoF8Ik24Y it was definitely cast.

Alan
Never mind then.  The experts seem to agree that the large Mughal coins were die struck.  Also, the Australian coin is much larger, at 1 ton (1,000,000 grams).  A 1000 mohur coin will be ~11,660 grams.   String a smaller coin would possibly more manageable. 

Also, the 1000 mohur had a diameter of 210 mm, which is big but still smaller than a standard 30 cm/15 inch ruler.  I imagine string such a big, but not huge, coin will be challenging, but certainly possible.  As a MechE, the first challenge I see is how achieve uniform striking pressure throughout the flan, so that the strike depth is uniform throughout. 
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Figleaf on January 10, 2014, 10:30:45 PM
What the major challenge is depends on the technology used. If these coins were somehow hammered (including the falling hammer, suggested by Oesho above) it would be to prevent echo striking. If it was done on a screw press, the major challenge is to keep the (metal) screw from breaking the (wooden) press frame with the upward movement after the strike.

Peter
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Pellinore on September 07, 2015, 02:35:59 AM
What a fascinating thread. If you want a large chunk of gold, here are some examples. To me, they are large and costly works of art, not coins.

I prefer a coin to be easily hand-held, like a silver dollar, or looked at appreciatively when it's between your fingers: a beautiful drachm, denarius or medieval penny with its darks and lights. Old widows' trembling hands can hold only a few dark brown mites: little copper coins, roughly made. And bankers want their coins in easy stacks: shiny, but flat and exactly round, merrily ringing gold ducats.
-- Paul
Title: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Bimat on April 06, 2017, 05:21:24 AM
The missing legacy of 1000-mohur gold

Syed Akbar | TNN | Updated: Apr 6, 2017, 08.29 AM IST

Mystery continues to shroud the 1000-mohur gold coin of Emperor Aurangzeb. It is the largest gold coin ever minted in the world, and weighs 11.193 kgs.

Emperor Aurangzeb presented this huge coin to Nawab Ghaziuddin Khan Siddiqui Bahadur, Feroze Jung I, whose son Nizam-ul-Mulk founded the Asaf Jah dynasty. For a little over two centuries, the coin passed from one generation to the next in the Nizam's family before coming into the possession of Mukarram Jah, the titular Nizam VIII.

According to city historians, the gold coin was put up for auction at Hapsberg Feldmann in Geneva in 1987. The Indian government, which regards the coin as a treasure of Indian heritage, however failed to intervene in time to stop the auction. But the auction was not successful as the price quoted by interested parties was far below the expectation. This came as a saving grace for the Indian government.

The coin was reportedly mortgaged with the Banque de Credit Suisse for an undisclosed sum. Its present status is not known.

"Gold coins of 100-mohurs and above were minted for presentation to loyal subjects and nobles in recognition of their accomplishment. Feroze Jung I had received the 1000-mohur coin in special appreciation of his bravery," said city historian Dr Mohammad Safiullah.

The existence of the gigantic gold coin in the Asaf Jah dynasty came to light only after it was put up for auction in Switzerland.

The 1000- mohur coin has a diametre of 20.3 cm with two couplets inscribed in beautiful Persian calligraphy. The emperor Shahjahan, Aurangzeb's father, is credited with ordering the minting of 100-mohur gold coins weighing 1.1660 kgs each.

Old Hyderabadis believe that the prince was taken for a ride by everyone, while the list of those dependent on him kept expanding relatives (14,792), and servants (14,000). It was the burden of having to deal with so many trusts and their beneficiaries that had caused Mukarram Jah to leave for Australia for good.

Source: Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/the-missing-legacy-of-1000-mohur-gold/articleshow/58039866.cms)
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Oesho on April 06, 2017, 10:14:11 AM
The TOI article is full of errors, he should had read some of the publications about these gigantic coins, but also on the Internet (like this website), but also on ZENO.http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=119784 (http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=119784) much more and accurate information can be obtained.
Moreover this gigantic mohur is not lost, but now adorns the collection of the Sheikh of Kuwait, displayed at the Museum of Islamic Art in Kuwait City.
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: jazz on April 06, 2017, 11:01:24 AM
Sharing this link of the museum which Oesho mentioned of in his post above -

https://darmuseum.org.kw/the-collections/numismatics/

Vishal
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: capnbirdseye on April 06, 2017, 11:04:41 AM

Moreover this gigantic mohur is not lost, but now adorns the collection of the Sheikh of Kuwait, displayed at the Museum of Islamic Art in Kuwait City.

Thankfully it is not kept for his own personal viewing but is presumably available for anyone to see at the museum
Title: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Bimat on April 06, 2017, 11:40:17 AM
The TOI article is full of errors, he should had read some of the publications about these gigantic coins, but also on the Internet (like this website), but also on ZENO.http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=119784 (http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=119784) much more and accurate information can be obtained.
Moreover this gigantic mohur is not lost, but now adorns the collection of the Sheikh of Kuwait, displayed at the Museum of Islamic Art in Kuwait City.


Thanks Oesho. How did the Sheikh of Kuwait get hold of 1000 mohur? ???

Aditya
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: capnbirdseye on April 06, 2017, 11:48:19 AM
Thanks Oesho. How did the Sheikh of Kuwait get hold of 1000 mohur? ???

Aditya

Just used his spare change  :D
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Oesho on April 06, 2017, 06:15:01 PM
You know the proverb: Two dogs fighting for a bone, the third will get away with it. This is what happened, the Indian Government were claiming the piece, but as it was already in Zwitserland long before WW II, the Indian Government had therefore no legal claim, but they went on fighting about it (and they where not willing to provide any compensation to the owner either and claimed it as State property) so than the third party got away with it. It is really a shame that for a couple of millions they lost the greatest numismatic treasure they could ever lay their hands on.
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Saikat on April 29, 2017, 04:54:05 PM
Recently I visited Fitzwilliam Museum at Cambridge. There I found this display of cast copy replica of 200 Mohur of Shah Jahan. The interesting aspect is this is displayed along with other Mughal coins of common denomination, so we get to understand how huge these  coins were.
Saikat
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Oesho on April 29, 2017, 05:12:44 PM
I have only a gypsum model of it (see the start of this thread). As all copies are made of one and the same model, the should be also of one and the same date.
In the description with the Fitzwilliam Museum they mentioned the date is AH1065, but in fact it is AH1064. The description therefore is wrong.
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: EWC on April 30, 2017, 09:00:21 AM
Anyone know the result for the 'giant' 25 dinar Ilkhanid piece that came up for auction at Morton and Eden a couple of days back?

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=1937&lot=117

Rob
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: mitresh on June 07, 2017, 08:58:49 PM
Jan - grateful if could provide actual translation of the 1000 tola Jahangir coin Obv & Rev
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Oesho on June 08, 2017, 12:24:57 AM
It's all written out in the original auction catalogue of November 9, 1987.
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Oesho on June 09, 2017, 04:54:53 PM
Rob,
Quote
Anyone know the result for the 'giant' 25 dinar Ilkhanid piece that came up for auction at Morton and Eden a couple of days back?
From the results is shows that it remained unsold. A 2nd change for you  :)
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Figleaf on June 10, 2017, 01:53:56 PM
Many thanks to Oesho, who dug into his impressive files and came up with the pages from the auction catalogue referred to in reply #47 above. I am attaching the pictures from the catalogue describing the obverse.

Peter
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Figleaf on June 10, 2017, 01:55:47 PM
And here is the reverse.

Peter
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: Oesho on June 10, 2017, 03:51:32 PM
You did a wonderful job, Peter. Excellent
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: mitresh on June 10, 2017, 04:23:20 PM
Wonderful and thanks Peter.

I'm sure many of us don't have access to the auction catalogue of 1987 so this information is really helpful.
Title: Re: Gigantic coins, written and illustrated by Oesho
Post by: capnbirdseye on June 27, 2017, 10:59:56 AM
A replica of this massive coin has just appeared on Ebay,
Replica 200 Mohur , said to be a facsimile coin made in Edinbrough from the coin obtained by Captain Peter Pigon and is made from gilded copper. 1kg and diameter is 1300mm  :o