World of Coins

Modern Asian coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens => Indian subcontinent: Mughal, Princely states and colonial (1526-1947) => Mughal central government => Topic started by: asm on February 25, 2010, 11:20:53 AM

Title: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: asm on February 25, 2010, 11:20:53 AM
The first coin weighs 5.7g and the second one 6.6 g. I feel both are the same, Mughal emperor Jahangir, Ujjain mint. Please confirm.

Amit
Title: Re: Mughal? Jahangir, Ujjain mint?
Post by: Oesho on February 25, 2010, 11:24:04 AM
Jahangir, Ujjain mint, Malwa standard falus.
Title: Re: Mughal? Jahangir, Ujjain mint?
Post by: asm on February 25, 2010, 11:49:06 AM
Oesho,

Thanky you for the quick attribution.

Amit
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: Rangnath on February 25, 2010, 11:13:33 PM
The second coin, even with the crack, is a real beauty. 
richie
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: asm on December 06, 2011, 01:43:09 PM
Here is another one...........

Amit
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: Overlord on December 06, 2011, 02:41:09 PM
"Ujjain" and "(Ja)hangir" are fully visible in the last example.

As I remember, Shah Jahan also issued coppers from the same mint with similar legends. Assuming this is correct, how does one distinguish "Shah Jahan" from "Shah Jahan(gir)", when the last part is off the flan?
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: asm on December 08, 2011, 02:12:14 AM
"Ujjain" and "(Ja)hangir" are fully visible in the last example.

Overlord adds that the legend read on the earlier posted coins:

First coin:
...Shah Jahan...

Second coin:
(Fa)lu(s)Sha(h) Jahan...

So how does one attribute the coins to either Jahangir or Shah Jahan? Any specific differences?

Amit
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: asm on December 10, 2011, 08:40:02 AM
The image of the Shah Jahan coins of Malwa on Numismaster for the 1/2 Falus and Falus are greatly different. Also there are 7 coins of Ujjain (Malwa) on Zeno (http://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=8159) under Jahangir but none under Shah Jahan. Would that not be surprising? I am not sure if any of them would be Shah Jahan coins.

Numismaster / SCWC / KM have made errors as seen in the past (some times wrong images) and if some one has made an error reading the coins of Shah Jahangir without the 'gir' as Shah Jahan...... (instead of Jahangir)....... well you would have a new lot. All the coins of this mint that I have come across for this type look surprisingly similar. 

I was looking up the coins of Shah Jahan and Jahangir and also found that the word 'Jaha' written in these coins of Jahangir is similar to all the specimens seen on Zeno and on this thread but 'Jaha' as seen on Shah Jahan coins is very different. Jahangir coins have 'Jaha' looking like a sword while the 'Jaha' in Shah Jahan is more like a 'W'.

Would appreciate any comments..........

Amit
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: Oesho on December 12, 2011, 05:02:06 PM
Quote
Also there are 7 coins of Ujjain (Malwa) on Zeno under Jahangir but none under Shah Jahan. Would that not be surprising? I am not sure if any of them would be Shah Jahan coins.

Of the 7 coins on ZENO, two have been up-loaded by me, viz. #82373 (http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=82373) and #82374 (http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=82374).
The first one is without doubt in the name of Jahangir, the second may be doubtful. All the other 5 are of the same type as #82374. Unless a coin turns-up with provides a clear name, all the coins of this type have provisionally been listed under Jahangir.
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: asm on December 13, 2011, 03:02:21 AM
Dear Oesho,

Do I read you correct if I understand what you say as:

Since some coins show the reading with the full name as Jahangir, all the coins of this type, including the coins which show only "Jaha" or "Jahan" are also provisionally classified as Jahangir..... and not Shah Jahan.

Amit

PS: I have such coins with different weight standards and will soon weight them to see the actual weight range.....
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: Oesho on December 13, 2011, 11:56:35 AM
Quote
all the coins of this type, including the coins which show only "Jaha" or "Jahan" are also provisionally classified as Jahangir..... and not Shah Jahan.
I wanted to say "only on ZENO".
Some may be Shah Jahan, but I have no material available which clearly shows 'Shah Jahan Badshah ...', therefore all coins have been provisionally listed on ZENO under Jahangir.
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: asm on December 13, 2011, 12:38:46 PM
'Shah Jahan Badshah ...',

Yes, this could be the catch. Shah Jahan Badshah  so if the Bad...... is seen after Jahan, it could be confirmed to be a coin of Shah Jahan, otherwise it should be attributed to Jahangir is my assumption correct?

Amit

Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: Oesho on December 13, 2011, 02:31:25 PM
 Most copper coins of Shah Jahan (http://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=3529&page=1) have the legend 'falus shah jahani'. The Malwa type differs from the usual Mughal series in weight, form and legend. As written above, of one issue (ZENO #82373 (http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=82373))we have no doubt as 'Jaha-ngir' is clearly shown. This coin type is not listed in any of the major museum catalogues, but only in the Supplement to vol. III Mughal Emperors of the Indian Museum (#377).
 The other example (ZENO # 82374 (http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=82374)) reads 'falus shah jaha...(shah?)..'
Punjab Museum Catalogue list no coppers of Ujjain for Jahangir, but lists (but not illustrates) a sq. copper coin on which they read 'Shah Jaha-n' (No. #1457). In the catalogue of the Central Museum Nagpur a copper coin with a similar description (Shah Jaha-n) is illustrated, but on the illustrated piece no Nun is visible.
In the Lucknow Museum Catalogue (No.#2434) a coin is described (but not illustrated) 'falus shah jahan'.
It is curious to observe that in all the museum catalogues, the coppers of Ujjain (except the Ilahi type, ZENO #82373; KM#128.1) are all attributed to Shah Jahan. On account of that I may have to move the majority of the copper coins of Ujjain, listed on ZENO, to Shah Jahan (KM#A204.1).
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: asm on December 13, 2011, 04:25:25 PM
That is very interesting. Look forward to more information.

Amit
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: asm on December 13, 2011, 04:58:55 PM
As Overlord notes in reply 5, one of the three coins above show the name as Jahangir.

Amit
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: Overlord on November 25, 2012, 07:02:53 AM
Based on the specimens I have come across, I think the issues of Shah Jahan can also be distinguished from those of Jahangir from the word(s) below "Jaha" (as the part above it is rarely visible). On coins of Shah Jahan, it reads "(Falus?) Shah" (as seen from asm's examples), whereas on those of Jahangir, it is clearly "Sikka". Given below are a couple of examples of Jahangir, showing the legend above and below "Jaha", respectively (making the complete legend "Sikka Jahangiri").

Jaha+Gir+Ye=Jahangiri
(http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy340/MajesticOverlord/02.jpg)

Sikka Jahan gir...
(http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy340/MajesticOverlord/01.jpg)
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: Overlord on January 23, 2013, 04:41:10 PM
Liddle's book describes the legend as "Sikka Mohammed Jahangir" (type C-49).  I wonder where the word "Mohammed" is there on the obverse  ???
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: Ansari on January 23, 2013, 04:53:17 PM
Seems He is taking this as "Mohammed".
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: Overlord on January 23, 2013, 04:59:54 PM
That seems to be an awkward position, doesn't it? That way, it would read "Sikka Jahan Muhammad Gir".
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: drnsreedhar on January 03, 2019, 07:24:29 PM
This coin adds parts of the legend. It reads almost "Muhammad" between "Jaha" and "ngir"
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: drnsreedhar on January 03, 2019, 07:28:33 PM
Here is another one where "ngir" is below "Jaha".
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: drnsreedhar on January 03, 2019, 07:33:28 PM
And on this coin, there is something written above "Muhammad". But it is of Jahangir.
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: drnsreedhar on January 03, 2019, 07:59:59 PM
Most copper coins of Shah Jahan (http://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=3529&page=1) have the legend 'falus shah jahani'
.
This coin here shows a better refined strike and "falus" at the bottom. Between falus and "Jaha". there is a letter. Can't that be "shah", to make it one of Shahjahan?
Title: Re: Mughal, Jahangir, Malwa standard falus, Ujjain mint
Post by: drnsreedhar on January 05, 2019, 06:11:48 AM
There are two more of this genus to post. Please comment.