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Other tokens and medals => Advertising, propaganda and numismatic artefacts => Private countermarks => Topic started by: eurocoin on September 04, 2020, 07:23:37 PM

Title: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: eurocoin on September 04, 2020, 07:23:37 PM
This topic is for other countermarks that have been found on modern UK coins. I regularly come across reports of these having been found while browsing on Facebook and instead of scrolling past I will post them here, it may lead to interesting things. Some of them are intriguing, others less so. Feel free to add new pieces etc.

Countermarks on UK coins related to the Troubles, European Integration and Scottish independence are excluded from this topic. They can be posted/discussed in the following specific topics:

Troubled coins (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,1461.0.html)
Countermarks related to (proposed) Scottish independence referendums (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,49305.0.html)
Countermarks related to European integration (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,47271.0.html)
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: eurocoin on September 04, 2020, 07:47:18 PM
This 50p coin was in May found in circulation in Essex. Suggestions were that it could be related to the designers Banksy or Robert Thompson who respectively use rats and mice in their works. Banksy is known to have countermarked coins. Another suggestion was that of a possible connection between the countermark and the nursery rhyme Three Blind Mice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Blind_Mice). The rhyme, which dates back to 1609, is believed to be based on the actions of three Protestant bishops who were accused of plotting against Queen Mary I. They were later burned at the stake. It of course also possible that the countermarker thinks that Queen Elizabeth II and/or her family are rats.

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39617.0;attach=102170;image)
© Immie Hansford - Fifty Pence Coin Collectors Group 50p, Facebook.
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: eurocoin on September 04, 2020, 08:10:28 PM
The name Darius Meads struck or laser etched into a 2016-dated 1 pound coin found in circulation in May 2018.

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39617.0;attach=102172;image)
© Jack Kenworthy - UK Coin Collectors: Buy, Trade & Sell, Facebook.
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: Figleaf on September 04, 2020, 10:06:31 PM
Another suggestion was that of a possible connection between the countermark and the nursery rhyme Three Blind Mice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Blind_Mice).

I like that theory. There is a "troubles" counterstamped coin with a similar same lay-out. The mice are coming at QEII from three directions, beleaguering her.

Peter
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: FosseWay on September 05, 2020, 10:36:17 AM
The "mouse" investigating Her Majesty's right nostril doesn't look very "mousy", though - it's clearly different from the very mouse-shaped mouse in the crown. With that raised tail it looks more like a cat  ;)
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: brandm24 on September 05, 2020, 12:12:57 PM
The placement of the little animals is interesting...one each at the throat, mouth/nose and one in the crown. The one in the crown is definitely a mouse or rat but I'm not sure about the other two. I'm not sure about a political meaning as they aren't punched across her face...more like carefully placed around it. The one at her throat looks a little menacing though.

It probably has nothing to do with the Irish situation as the only really active counterstampers at the time was RIRA. Their initial stamps were blunt and to the point and never used symbols that I've seen. Also nearly all of their stamps were struck on 1 and 2 pound coins.

I'm vaguely familiar with Barsky's work and on the surface it doesn't strike me as something of his.Just a guess there though. I'm not familiar with Thompson.

Bruce

Bruce
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: brandm24 on September 10, 2020, 02:42:38 PM
Here's an interesting coin I came across recently. It's a 1969 50p "revalued " to 50 cents. I don't know what to make of it but I'm sure someone here has an answer. The coin is in the Dissident Coins collection at the Fitzwilliam Museum.

Bruce
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: brandm24 on October 25, 2020, 10:42:57 AM
This 2011 2p offered on eBay has an interesting counterstamp. Since the stamp on this coin and others he offers are new as far as I can tell, I think it may refer to the Covid pandemic. What think you?

Bruce
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: Figleaf on October 25, 2020, 01:32:56 PM
Here's an interesting coin I came across recently. It's a 1969 50p "revalued " to 50 cents. I don't know what to make of it but I'm sure someone here has an answer. The coin is in the Dissident Coins collection at the Fitzwilliam Museum.

Rereading this, a bell rang when I read the word "dissident". When Bush Jr. went into Iraq, he did so without the support of NATO allies or seeking UN support. As a result, the only country that went along was the UK. The prime minister in those days was Tony Blair, who was sharply criticised by the conservative opposition. They popularised their stance by calling Blair an "American lap dog". That episode would fit the counterstamp.

Peter
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: Figleaf on October 25, 2020, 01:35:57 PM
Since the stamp on this coin and others he offers are new as far as I can tell, I think it may refer to the Covid pandemic. What think you?

There may be a connection with this well known adage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_too_shall_pass).

Peter
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: brandm24 on October 25, 2020, 04:47:01 PM
Rereading this, a bell rang when I read the word "dissident". When Bush Jr. went into Iraq, he did so without the support of NATO allies or seeking UN support. As a result, the only country that went along was the UK. The prime minister in those days was Tony Blair, who was sharply criticised by the conservative opposition. They popularised their stance by calling Blair an "American lap dog". That episode would fit the counterstamp.

Peter
I'm not sure the Fitzwilliam thought this was actually a dissident coin although it was part of a huge collection they acquired that could be labeled that way. The collection was bought from Gavin Scott and numbered about 400 pieces. His reason for amassing the collection was to preserve examples of this type of coin from many different countries. I was fortunate to get a copy of their inventory, but only dealing with the Irish / British issues related to the Troubles...about 75 in total.

As I examined the sheets it became apparent to me that at least a dozen had no relation to the Troubles and likely weren't even  of a dissident nature. Another dozen perhaps I couldn't make a determination on because I needed images to examine closely. To this day, I don't think they've been photographed so that's a dead end.

In any case, your explanation may be correct, but might it better represent something related to monetary policy?

Bruce
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: Figleaf on October 25, 2020, 06:10:16 PM
In any case, your explanation may be correct, but might it better represent something related to monetary policy?

Not likely. The USD/GBP rate was never close to 1. Moreover, even if it was, it would probably not have been controversial enough to warrant the trouble of a counterstamp.

Peter
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: FosseWay on October 26, 2020, 10:40:47 AM
Rereading this, a bell rang when I read the word "dissident". When Bush Jr. went into Iraq, he did so without the support of NATO allies or seeking UN support. As a result, the only country that went along was the UK. The prime minister in those days was Tony Blair, who was sharply criticised by the conservative opposition. They popularised their stance by calling Blair an "American lap dog". That episode would fit the counterstamp.

Peter

Only problem is that 1969 large 50 pence coins were demonetised in 1997 and the Iraq war occurred in 2003.

Also, a point of information: The Conservative opposition *supported* Blair's involvement in Iraq. The only sizable party (by parliamentary representation at the time) that didn't was the Liberal Democrats. However, the political parties' positions in general hid a lot of dissent within each party's ranks, and in particular there were may Labour MPs who objected. But most opposition came from ordinary members of the public
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: brandm24 on October 26, 2020, 03:05:38 PM
Thanks to you both for weighing in on the 50"cent" piece.

Maybe it was just some shyster here in the States trying to pass it off as a half dollar. ;D

Any thoughts on the "This Shall Pass" 2p, FosseWay?

Bruce
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: FosseWay on October 26, 2020, 03:09:01 PM
I suspect your suggestion is the most likely - that it refers to covid-19. But it could be a broader commentary on politics, Brexit, recession, Trump, who knows  ;D

What came first to my mind when I saw that was the Republican slogan ¡No pasarán! from the Spanish civil war - although this is opposite in meaning, of course.
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: brandm24 on February 16, 2021, 02:48:37 PM
This is another one I just came across on a 1970 British 10p. There's a lightly struck "2 Shilling" applied on the reverse. Anyone know the purpose of it?

Bruce
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: FosseWay on February 16, 2021, 04:04:20 PM
Anti-decimalisation diehards?
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: brandm24 on February 16, 2021, 05:36:57 PM
Did the new 10p replace the old 2 Shilling?

Bruce
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: FosseWay on February 16, 2021, 07:10:11 PM
Yes, same size and weight, and the 2 shilling coin circulated widely alongside the 10p till the latter was resized in 1992.
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: brandm24 on February 16, 2021, 08:48:47 PM
Thanks. Interesting that someone would have to mark it like that though.

Bruce
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: FosseWay on February 16, 2021, 10:11:57 PM
Well, there's nowt so queer as folk, as they say round where my parents live  ;)
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: Figleaf on February 17, 2021, 10:18:48 AM
There's always a group to oppose a change. I do remember those opposing decimalisation. One of their slogans: unnecessary, unwarranted and un-English.

Peter
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: FosseWay on February 17, 2021, 10:27:59 AM
There was a hilarious vox pop done by the BBC (I think) where a reporter asked shoppers what they thought. One elderly respondent said "It's all very well for the young people, but they should have waited till the old people had died"  ;D

Otherwise, actually I think most of the opinions were the same kind of thing that we've seen with more recent and less comprehensive changes to the coinage - people like/don't like the designs, people think there's been too much/not enough publicity, people think that their special interest group hasn't been catered for and so on - but on the substantive issue they don't have much of a view.

The one substantive issue that did turn out to be something of a problem was the extent to which inflation was affected by redenomination to new price points. The same affected the eurozone in 2002, but with the important difference that inflation was pretty low in general in 2002, while in 1971 in the UK it was very high by modern standards.
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: Figleaf on February 17, 2021, 10:36:57 AM
There was a hilarious vox pop done by the BBC (I think) where a reporter asked shoppers what they thought. One elderly respondent said "It's all very well for the young people, but they should have waited till the old people had died"

An instant classic. I love it. Thank you.

Peter
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: brandm24 on February 17, 2021, 12:35:06 PM
There's always a group to oppose a change. I do remember those opposing decimalisation. One of their slogans: unnecessary, unwarranted and un-English.

Peter

A bit late to be opposing anything at that point. It's a done deal so move on.

There was a hilarious vox pop done by the BBC (I think) where a reporter asked shoppers what they thought. One elderly respondent said "It's all very well for the young people, but they should have waited till the old people had died"  ;D

The only problem with that argument of course is there's always a fresh supply of old people to fill the ranks. :laughing:
Bruce
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: eurocoin on February 17, 2021, 01:13:49 PM
I knew I had seen this countermark somewhere before. There is also one in the collection of the Fitzwilliam Museum (although it appears to be not included in their online collection database). I see they have an information card with it. Maybe they can offer more information on it.

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39617.0;attach=106471;image)

Photo: Professor Dan Hicks.
Title: Re: Other countermarks on modern UK coins
Post by: brandm24 on February 17, 2021, 10:21:47 PM
Now that you mention it, I've seen it before too. I had a contact at the Fitzwilliam  in regard to their Troubles collection but hsven't been able to make contact for some time...Prof. Richard Kelleher in the Coins and Medals Department. Nothing from them since Covid hit. They may be inactive and not able to respond.

Bruce