World of Coins

Modern Asian coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens => Iran and Afghanistan => Civic issues => Topic started by: saro on November 24, 2016, 03:11:11 PM

Title: Iran,civic copper of Isfahan dated 124x AH / scales, oblique milling
Post by: saro on November 24, 2016, 03:11:11 PM
18,23g / 25mm / thickness : 4- 4,2mm
This civic copper of Isfahan has been struck during Qajar period (Fath 'Ali) and is the first one that I see with an oblique milling; one is listed on Zeno.
A coin with a similar design, dated 1242 AH, weighing 8,48g and with a "normal" edge it seems, is shown by Bahram Alaedini.
The last digit of the date is not very clear, I read 1241 but could be well 1242 ?
This coin is fairly legible: "'adl" in center and  another indication at top :" 5 / 28 " which is puzzling...
I wonder if that couldn't be the exchange value and the reference standard ? (5 shahi of 28 nokhud for example ??? )
(the Zeno coin doesn't allow to read this).

Any help would be welcome... :)
Title: Re: Iran,civic copper of Isfahan dated 124x AH / scales, oblique milling
Post by: Figleaf on January 17, 2017, 11:22:29 AM
Can't help you. All I can do is express my amazement on this coin. Good, round flan, almost whole, quite detailed die on flan, much of it readable and to top it off, a mille edge. That's no common civic issue you have there.

Coining machinery was still scarce and probably largely confined to the Teheran mint. Yet, your coin was made with more than human power and basic tools. If it was minted with some kind of press, the flan must have been rolled to even thickness and there likely was another machine for making the milling. That's not how I imagine a civic mint producing for the local souk and caravanserai, but I could imagine a national mint in Iran's second city.

As for the 5 and 28, the figures are clear. I think the example was Czarist coins, where weight and content are marked on the edge. This was a time when Russia was expanding to the South and its influence in Central Asia was growing quickly, probably leading to its money being accepted in Northern Persia. However, you are the better man to interpret the figures.

Peter
Title: Re: Iran,civic copper of Isfahan dated 124x AH / scales, oblique milling
Post by: capnbirdseye on January 17, 2017, 01:02:02 PM
Beautiful coin saro, how it escaped notice when you posted it in November I have no idea but I'll see if I can find more info on the meaning of 5 / 28
Title: Re: Iran,civic copper of Isfahan dated 124x AH / scales, oblique milling
Post by: saro on January 18, 2017, 08:32:43 AM
I think the example was Czarist coins, where weight and content are marked on the edge. This was a time when Russia was expanding to the South and its influence in Central Asia was growing quickly
Yes Peter, the oblique milling seems well to be of russian influence and I wonder if that couldn't be an overstruck  russian coin ?

Vic : thank you for any further information  :)
Title: Re: Iran,civic copper of Isfahan dated 124x AH / scales, oblique milling
Post by: capnbirdseye on January 18, 2017, 09:45:40 PM
Posting the coin on zeno on behalf of saro has instantly given us the result we need !

528 are Abjad numerals, The Abjad numerals are a decimal numeral system in which the 28 letters of the Arabic alphabet are assigned numerical values. They have been used in the Arabic-speaking world since before the eighth century when Arabic numerals were adopted. In modern Arabic, the word abjadīyah means 'alphabet' in general.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abjad_numerals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abjad_numerals)
Title: Re: Iran,civic copper of Isfahan dated 124x AH / scales, oblique milling
Post by: capnbirdseye on January 18, 2017, 10:44:51 PM
Problem here though is that Abjad seems to be used in the Arabic world rather than Persian and i can find no other Persian coins using it, another theory on Fb is that it represents verses from the Koran
Title: Re: Iran,civic copper of Isfahan dated 124x AH / scales, oblique milling
Post by: Figleaf on January 19, 2017, 02:11:40 AM
I wonder if that couldn't be an overstruck  russian coin ?

Brilliant thought. I take it that 1242 is the equivalent of 1830 AD (lunar hejira)? If so, 25 mm is closest to a heavy 1 kopeck (25 mm). However, the heavy 1 kopecks are 6.83 grams - the light ones are 4 grams. The closest to 18.23 grams are the 2 kopecks up to 1807 @ 20.48 grams. Quite a good match, except that these coins are between 35 and 40 mm.

I hadn't focussed on how thick your coin is. That thickness is impossible to hammer with such detail. They must have been machine-struck.

Peter
Title: Re: Iran,civic copper of Isfahan dated 124x AH / scales, oblique milling
Post by: saro on January 19, 2017, 09:02:24 PM
Posting the coin on zeno on behalf of saro has instantly given us the result we need ! 528 are Abjad numerals
Thank you very much Vic. I didn't thought to this possibility, but now....what is the meaning of "528" in the Abjad system  ???
It has been used in arabic, urdu and persian areas (and still today it is an intellectual exercise in Urdu). In Iran, a good example is the Meshed rupee of Nadir Shah which gives his accession date in a chronogram using the Abjad code.
Title: Re: Iran,civic copper of Isfahan dated 124x AH / scales, oblique milling
Post by: saro on January 20, 2017, 08:11:51 AM
In Iran, a good example is the Meshed rupee of Nadir Shah which gives his accession date in a chronogram using the Abjad code.
A rupee dated 1149 was posted 1 month ago here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,37374.0.html)
Title: Re: Iran,civic copper of Isfahan dated 124x AH / scales, oblique milling
Post by: saro on January 20, 2017, 08:23:41 AM
I take it that 1242 is the equivalent of 1830 AD (lunar hejira)? If so, 25 mm is closest to a heavy 1 kopeck (25 mm). However, the heavy 1 kopecks are 6.83 grams - the light ones are 4 grams. The closest to 18.23 grams are the 2 kopecks up to 1807 @ 20.48 grams. Quite a good match, except that these coins are between 35 and 40 mm.
I hadn't focussed on how thick your coin is. That thickness is impossible to hammer with such detail. They must have been machine-struck.

Thank you Peter for that, it's still a mystery... I notice that there are no sharp details due, it seems, to a feeble strike, and that the two faces are not strictly parallel as it should be in case of a machine struck coin (4mm on one side and 4,2mm on the other).
Title: Re: Iran,civic copper of Isfahan dated 124x AH / scales, oblique milling
Post by: Figleaf on January 20, 2017, 04:13:14 PM
As for the detail, the easy answer is "not enough pressure". My speculation is that they were not struck with a screw or water press, but with a steam press. If so, the pressure setting was wrong or the machine did not function properly. A wrong setting is understandable, especially since the coin is much thicker than usual and Isfahan is a provincial mint, but the weak strikes should have been noticed fairly quickly. Therefore, I would say the press wasn't functioning optimally. Machines of this time were big, clanky affairs that had to be oiled and maintained constantly. Without a qualified engineer, that could have caused the weak strike in multiple ways.

Today, dies are "clicked" into place, so you may indeed expect perfectly aligned dies. However, in early presses, dies would sometimes be screwed in place. Dies will shake loose by the striking operation, so they'll be fastened with more and more power and the screw thread will wear. A die divergence of say 15% or less in coins struck by such presses is not unusual.

Peter
Title: Re: Iran,civic copper of Isfahan dated 124x AH / scales, oblique milling
Post by: saro on April 07, 2021, 11:33:52 AM
Posting the coin on zeno on behalf of saro has instantly given us the result we need !
528 are Abjad numerals, The Abjad numerals are a decimal numeral system in which the 28 letters of the Arabic alphabet are assigned numerical values.

but now....what is the meaning of "528" in the Abjad system  ???

I come back to this enigma with a suggestion...
I tried a lot of possible formulas ( a good hobby during these covid confinement times...) and detected only a single credible one :
" بسم الله محمد علی حسین  " / 102 + 96 + 92 + 110 + 128 = 528