World of Coins

Research and reference => Numismatics => Topic started by: Pabitra on March 21, 2015, 08:09:40 AM

Title: The definition of "circulation coins"
Post by: Pabitra on March 21, 2015, 08:09:40 AM
You perhaps define circulation coin as per your convenience but there is very specific difference between general circulation coin and circulating commemorative coin.

Even Croatia mint does not include higher denomination coin in their circulation coin set.


Same is true for Russia too.

 
Title: Re: The definition of "circulation coins"
Post by: Figleaf on March 22, 2015, 06:11:29 PM
No official decides which coins* circulate and which do not. The public decides. Packaged sets are no indication. The only way to find out is to be there and see what you receive in change.

Peter

* this term automatically excludes medals with a denomination, sold for more than that denomination.
Title: Re: The definition of "circulation coins"
Post by: Pabitra on March 22, 2015, 06:44:20 PM
General circulation coins are those which form a part of set issued each year.
Their designs are repeated.
The actual issue may depend on demand.
They may circulate among those who do their transactions in cash.

Others are circulating commemoratives.
They are issued once ( generally).
May circulate or not.
They normally commemorate events and events related to personalities.

Kindly go through the previous mails in this thread before responding.
Title: Re: The definition of "circulation coins"
Post by: Figleaf on March 22, 2015, 06:54:51 PM
I disagree with most of that, but you can of course use your own definitions.

Peter
Title: Re: The definition of "circulation coins"
Post by: Pabitra on March 23, 2015, 01:06:04 AM
See Directory of circulating coins

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,31288.msg197789.html#msg197789

And perhaps the definition given in foreword will clear many of the clouded issues
Title: Re: The definition of "circulation coins"
Post by: Figleaf on March 23, 2015, 02:04:19 AM
OK, if you insist.

Coins in circulation are not necessarily part of a packaged set nor circulated each year.
Designs are not necessarily repeated. See e.g. the current US series and <k>'s threads on the subject of (non)-coherent sets.
Coins put in circulation depends only on demand and nothing else. This is why the US has so many metallic dollar coins in stock.
Coins are by definition used in all cash transactions not handled exclusively by paper. Pieces not so used are not coins.
There is lots of round metallic stuff that circulates and are not coins (e.g. parking tokens) as well as veritable mountains of round metallic stuff that does not circulate. Neither are by definition commemoratives or circulating coins.
Commemoratives are usually issued with one date, which may or may not coincide with the year they are sold. Some commemoratives are sold many years after they were struck.
Commemoratives may commemorate the weirdest things, ranging from mass death to lower level governments and from indigenous plants to space exploration.

None of this actually matters much. There are very few if any rules in numismatics without exceptions. What does matter is to use words carefully. In circulation means "used to pay and accepted as payment". It does not mean "part of a packaged set". Commemorative means a piece that has a different design than a circulation coin. It does not mean "anything that's not in a date set".

When Natko says the Sochi 25 rouble pieces circulate, that is a statement of fact that is neither strange nor controversial. There are plenty of other examples of commemoratives that circulated or have circulated. Think of low value FAO coins. We (fortunately) have plenty of newbies here, who are besieged for their money by marketeers of uneven honesty, some calling the most abject nonsense coins. We should help our members with clarity.

Peter
Title: Re: The definition of "circulation coins"
Post by: Pabitra on March 23, 2015, 07:46:33 AM
No need to discus the subject when authoritative definition exists.

Newbies should learn to read books before coming to the forums
Title: Re: The definition of "circulation coins"
Post by: <k> on March 23, 2015, 11:14:53 AM
There are many categories and sub-categories of coins, and there are therefore many ways of looking at them or categorising them.

In the first instance, we can say that there are coins that are intended by the government (or treasury or relevant authorities) to circulate. These are OFFICIAL circulation coins. Figleaf is right to say that the public decides which coins circulate: in the USA for instance, dollar and half dollar coins are disliked and largely not used. As collectors, we tend to take either the legal view or the utilitarian view. I generally take the legal view: if the authorities say it is a coin, then it's a coin. Figleaf takes the utilitarian view: if people use it to buy things, then it's a coin, and if they don't, it's a "pseudo-coin"; if there is a dearth of official coins, then people will create their own trade tokens.

So, Pabitra takes the legal view and cleaves to the authorities; Figleaf takes the utilitarian view and cleaves to "the people". Both are valid ways of looking at things.

Quote
Newbies should learn to read books before coming to the forums.

How newbies learn is entirely up to them. Perhaps they do or do not read books before they visit the forum. Probably they are initially more likely to visit numismatic web sites. Our aim should be to guide them (gently and with tolerance), answer their questions, and offer advice. They are of course not required to accept our advice. Each collector or numismatist is different and will form his or her own views and concentrate on the issues that he/she considers to be useful or important.
Title: Re: The definition of "circulation coins"
Post by: Pabitra on March 23, 2015, 11:55:06 AM
So, Pabitra takes the legal view and cleaves to the authorities; Figleaf takes the utilitarian view and cleaves to "the people".

You got it, Phil.
There are circulation coins and there are circulating coins.
Circulation coins are general and definitive coins and are designed and made for circulation.
If they do not circulate then there are anomalies in the behaviour of market, which need to be looked into.

What actually circulates may also not be always an acceptable thing but an accepted way of life.
In Channel Islands, UK coins circulate but they are not meant to be made for that.
In Bhutan, Indian coins circulate as do Euro coins in Czech Republic. They are their because of certain extenuating circumstances.
To a common man, it makes little difference but that should not be true for a numismatist.
Title: Re: The definition of "circulation coins"
Post by: <k> on March 23, 2015, 12:18:11 PM
In Channel Islands, UK coins circulate but they are not meant to be made for that.

As usual, anomalies abound. Before decimalisation, the highest denomination was threepence in Guernsey and "one fourth of a shilling" (also threepence) in Jersey. The rest of the coinage was standard British coinage, but our copper and bronze coins and threepences were also legal tender there. Since decimalisation, both Jersey and Guernsey have their own full decimal circulation sets but still also use UK coinage. Though the main purpose of UK coinage is NOT to circulate in the Channel Islands and IOM, I'm sure that the UK authorities do not mind this. The Channel Islands are said to be in currency union with the UK, but their banknotes and coins are not legal in the UK, so that is not a currency union. During the debate on what currency an independent Scotland could use, the UK Treasury actually said that the IOM and Channel Islands are NOT in currency union with the UK, and that they in fact use currency boards, pegging their own pounds to ours. The Crown Dependencies like to keep their financial affairs opaque and so do not advertise this fact!

See also: The Channel Islands' limited predecimal range (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,30871.0.html).

In the Isle of Man in the 1970s, Manx, Irish and UK coinage was used, though Irish coinage and notes were not legal tender there. In 1978/9, Ireland broke the link with sterling, so Irish coinage was not accepted on IOM after that. IOM is very popular with Irish tourists - when I went there in 1981, I heard Northern Irish accents everywhere!

In 1984 I visited Bavaria. One day I took the train to Innsbruck, just across the border in Austria. The shops there happily accepted my German coins and notes.

In 1981, I saw shops in my home town of Newcastle pricing goods in kroner, since it is a popular destination for Scandinavians, who come over on the ferry for the weekend. So there are all sorts of interesting "unofficial" numismatic situations.
Title: Re: The definition of "circulation coins"
Post by: EWC on March 23, 2015, 01:04:43 PM
I agree with Peter and <k> but would want to go further.  There are more parties involved than just the public and the government.  I suppose this comes out most clearly these days with notes.  In the UK the government printed lots of GBP 5 notes - and the public wanted them - but the clearing banks do not distribute them. I draw cash at the counter in twenties tens and fives, and there is always a delay getting the 5s as the clerk sorts though a pile of old rubbish trying to find ones to give out.  The story of 50s is even worse.  I have been told by a teller that the bank did not hold them, and anyway they would be no good to me as shops would not accept them.  Attitudes like that at banks clearly must influence out turns.  Coin matters I can think of are not quite so stark but I am sure similar situations have existed.  During coin shortages in Britain in the 18th and early 19th century, there are plenty of suggestions that banks and large employers colluded to monopolise official coin for wage payments, in order to make difficulties for smaller business rivals who were thus forced into paying out fake coin etc
Title: Re: The definition of "circulation coins"
Post by: Figleaf on March 23, 2015, 02:53:20 PM
Good point and it refers to more than modern issues and more parties. Thinking of a long series of issues from some small baronies along the river Meuse that imitated the coins of the Republic and found wide circulation there. Similarly, the lightweight coppers and imitation silver stuiver coins struck in Birmingham and circulated all over the Malay archipelago and peninsula come to mind. They performed a monetary function and were therefore forbidden by the powers that be.

You will not be surprised that 17th and 18th century Dutch mintmasters delivered coin lots, on average of good weight, to their "friends", who culled the heavy ones, disposed of the light ones and split the profit with the mintmaster. Not exactly the same, but also changing what the rulers thought was in circulation.

Peter
Title: Re: The definition of "circulation coins"
Post by: Pabitra on March 24, 2015, 03:02:00 PM
Though the main purpose of UK coinage is NOT to circulate in the Channel Islands and IOM, I'm sure that the UK authorities do not mind this.

UK authorities may or may not mind but what can they do even if they mind.

US Dollar is in circulation in Liberia, Ecuador, Panama and Zimbabwe officially and US Authorities could not care less. It is acceptable currency from Moscow to Macau and India to Iran but no one could care less.

Some things are just accepted.
I remember, I once bought a robot  ( home cleaning ) in Antwerp. It was made by an American company, Hoover in Italy. I assumed that the manual would be in English but still asked the sales girl. She told me that the manual is in all European languages. When I reached home, I could see that the manual was in more than 10 languages but English was not there. Next time, I visited the store, I asked the girl. She said " English is not a mainland European language". I told her that Gibraltar is in mainland Europe. Her reply " when we say Europe, it is EU".

This site is registered as .eu site but English is in circulation (?)  but not official.
Belgians have a nice way of putting it."It is not English but American . Unfortunately both are same."  :-))