World of Coins

Modern Asian coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens => Indian subcontinent: Mughal, Princely states and colonial (1526-1947) => Mughal central government => Topic started by: Randomiser on June 14, 2014, 02:26:59 AM

Title: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Randomiser on June 14, 2014, 02:26:59 AM
I've got 6 coins I believe to be Dams of Akbar the Great which I am either hoping to get help with identifying or to get a confirmation of identification I've got for some of them or perhaps some additional details.

I also wanted to ask what are the best ways of storing the dams considering that they are too thick for albums or capsules.

Your help with this will be much appreciated.
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Randomiser on June 14, 2014, 02:27:32 AM
Akbar Dam 1 :  Weighs 20.7g, diameter 20mm, Urdu Zafar,  Ilahi 39
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Randomiser on June 14, 2014, 02:28:06 AM
Akbar Dam 2  : weighs 20.7g, Narnol,  date 972
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Randomiser on June 14, 2014, 02:28:41 AM
Akbar Dam 3 : weighs 20g,  Dogam,  date 999
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Randomiser on June 14, 2014, 02:29:09 AM
Akbar Dam 4 : 20.5g
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Randomiser on June 14, 2014, 02:29:39 AM
Akbar Dam 5  : 20.2g
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Randomiser on June 14, 2014, 02:30:06 AM
Akbar Dam 6 : 20.5g
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Quant.Geek on June 14, 2014, 03:04:09 AM
You know you can try to identify them yourself by looking at the freely available coin catalogs on archive.org.  That is what I usually do.  Also, you can use the Krause Indian catalog via google  books.  You have access to most of the mughal entries from there as well.  See the following books:

https://archive.org/details/catalogueofcoins02lahouoft
https://archive.org/details/coinsofmoghulemp00brit
http://books.google.com/books?id=T1P3l6zE_I0C&pg=PA4&dq=krause+mughal&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Z5-bU-zIHK2isATpwYCwDw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=mughal&f=false
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Randomiser on June 14, 2014, 08:30:52 AM
Thanks for the links. I suppose I would enjoy using the Krause catalog to identify these coins, but I can't manage to open it.

I only happen to have 6 of these coins which I bought because they looked interesting to me while I was in opportunity to buy them cheaply. I was under impression that there are people with great interest in and great knowledge about dam coins so i hope it wouldn't be trouble for them to give me some hints from the top of their heads.

Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: capnbirdseye on June 14, 2014, 09:56:06 AM
number 6 appears to be Atak Banaras mint, looks like Ilahi month Farwardin (Aries)
 5 is Narnol mint

Number 1 is Urdu zafar Qarin, known as 'camp money' these were struck enroute whilst Akbar was touring his domains in order to pay troops & other expences
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Quant.Geek on June 14, 2014, 12:40:30 PM
I only happen to have 6 of these coins which I bought because they looked interesting to me while I was in opportunity to buy them cheaply. I was under impression that there are people with great interest in and great knowledge about dam coins so i hope it wouldn't be trouble for them to give me some hints from the top of their heads.

It is not that I am against people from posting requests for identifying coins, but one of the fun things about collecting coins is trying to identify unknown coins.  I can't read Arabic, Persian, Bengali, nor Burmese, but I was able to spend the time to identify several coins myself using online catalogs as the ones I mentioned to come up with the answer.  Of course, there are times when that even proves to be difficult and hence I post a request here for aid.  The coins you posted should be fairly easy to identify...
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: capnbirdseye on June 14, 2014, 12:56:08 PM
  The coins you posted should be fairly easy to identify...

I wouldn't go so far as to say fairly easy,far from it in fact, for a start most of the mint is off the flan on some of the coins so it takes a skilled eye to spot the parts that are visible, my reading is extremely basic & I've only learned to recognise certain mints easily because I have examples myself. Some mints such as Narnol usually have very thick calligraphy which gives a clue if the mint is mostly missing. 
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Quant.Geek on June 14, 2014, 01:05:03 PM
Vic,

In my book, you are an expert in reading these coins :D.  For me to identify these types of coins, I use comparative analysis and it works fairly well.  Once you have a basic understanding of where the coin is from, you should be able to identify the coin.  Of course, if you got a lump of copper with no clue as to where it originated, you got a lot of work on your hands and you definitely need someone to decipher the legends.

If these coins are indeed Akbar dams, then he should have no problem identifying the coins.  It just requires time, patience and the right tools.  If they are not, then he just has a several lumps of copper that needs identifying and that is quite difficult indeed. The earlier posts he made are of this example as he did not know where the coins came from, but you did an excellent job in identifying them.  I would have been clueless myself in that situation...


Ram
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: capnbirdseye on June 14, 2014, 01:12:20 PM
I think the difference is in identifying the coins as being dams of Akbar as apposed to identifying the actual mint, 8)
I agree it should be easy to spot similar chunky coins on the net or on zeno etc. & from that work out that these are of Akbar.
Coin number 3 of Dogoan presumably has the date in words as I see no numerals for AH 999 but I can't manage to read the date  :'(
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Quant.Geek on June 14, 2014, 01:16:58 PM
I think the difference is in identifying the coins as being dams of Akbar as apposed to identifying the actual mint, 8)

Correct, and my definition of identification meant full attribution including mint and possible legend and year as well.  Getting legends are quite difficult at times as several sources do not provide them and the ones that do are few and far between...

BTW, I added one additional free book to the list above, The coins of the Moghul emperors of Hindustan in the British museum...

Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: saro on June 16, 2014, 10:34:42 PM
Coin n°5 (Narnol) shows a full date in words : "nuhsad wa shast wa nuh" = 969 (also partially readable in digits at bottom)
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Randomiser on June 17, 2014, 02:59:59 AM
I think the difference is in identifying the coins as being dams of Akbar as apposed to identifying the actual mint, 8)
I agree it should be easy to spot similar chunky coins on the net or on zeno etc. & from that work out that these are of Akbar.
Coin number 3 of Dogoan presumably has the date in words as I see no numerals for AH 999 but I can't manage to read the date  :'(


First of all, I want to thank you once again for all your help Sir.

That is indeed how far I was able to go with these coins.

As for the date AH 999 I was convinced it was on the coin in the are that I marked with a square bellow:

Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Randomiser on June 17, 2014, 03:02:58 AM
On another look I found  a similar group of symbols on coin number 4. Isn't it a date 999 ?

Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Randomiser on June 17, 2014, 03:06:16 AM
Coin n°5 (Narnol) shows a full date in words : "nuhsad wa shast wa nuh" = 969 (also partially readable in digits at bottom)

Thank you very much.


I summarised information I've got from Victor and you and added it to what I've got from the original seller. Seems we only know nothing about coin #4 at this stage.





Akbar Dam 1 :  Weighs 20.7g, diameter 20mm, Urdu Zafar,  Ilahi 39

Urdu zafar Qarin, known as 'camp money' these were struck enroute
whilst Akbar was touring his domains in order to pay troops & other expenses


Akbar Dam 2  : weighs 20.7g, Narnol,  date 972


Akbar Dam 3 : weighs 20g,  Dogam,  date 999


Akbar Dam 4 : 20.5g


Akbar Dam 5  : 20.2g

Narnol mint

shows a full date in words : "nuhsad wa shast wa nuh" = 969 (also partially readable in digits at bottom)


Akbar Dam 6 : 20.5g

Atak Banaras mint, looks like Ilahi month Farwardin (Aries)



Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Randomiser on June 17, 2014, 03:34:18 AM
Another thing I have just spotted is that coins 3 & 4 are actually terribly similar if you observe them carefully. Here are one side of each coin next to each other, each with particular area marked. The symbols in those areas are almost identical. The only difference between the two sides of the coins is in bottom left "corners", or if you like left side of the coin number 4 (basically, most but not all of the areas outside the red rectangles).

 Similarly, there is a huge similarity between other sides of the coins

Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: saro on June 17, 2014, 08:45:38 AM
I join Vic : I am not able to detect a date like "999" ? in your square red areas it's the word "falus" of "dar al-salam falus Dogaon"; the date is on the other face, both in words and digits (fi sanah + date).

Your 2 last pictures are similar obverses which reads "dar al salam falus Dogaon" and here again what probably looks like a "4" is the "G" of Dogaon...no digit in it.
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: capnbirdseye on June 17, 2014, 10:30:14 AM
Ramdomiser, you have a nice little collection there to start you off if you become interested in Akbar coppers, the word you confused with 999 appears on countless copper coins because 'Falus' means exactly that -copper coin  your coin 1  has most of this word visible also,
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Randomiser on June 18, 2014, 06:14:48 AM
Thank you so much to both Vic and Saro. I wasn't aware of that and it is a very useful information. Now I know that if all of that space was used to write falus (copper) then only the rest of the coin's area is actually used to  identify them.
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Figleaf on June 18, 2014, 04:17:51 PM
But the word falus is also interesting. It is written as "fls" in Arabic. Use other vowels and you get follis. In its latest iteration, that was a coin of 40 nummi, but there are earlier coins with that name. They were introduced in 296 AD as a double denarius. Before that, it was a leather purse, holding a Roman soldier's pay - not necessarily coins, because soldiers could be paid in salt. That was their salarium.

Peter
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: saro on June 18, 2014, 05:04:03 PM
And in addition to Peter's post : in french slang, "flouze" means "money"; the word is directly coming from french North Africa and his still used today. It is interesting to notice that the french transcription is the exact phonetic of the arabic "flus".
It's one of the many arabic words of the french popular language....
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: saro on June 18, 2014, 06:04:02 PM
Dam Dogaon n°3 :
The date isn't 999 but 1003...and  you have an interesting variety of dam from Dogaon mint with "Allah Akbar".
I join a drawing because the reading of this coin is not at all easy : the lower word is "fi" (and not "9") followed by ""sanah" just above it, which means "in year..". The date is written in words and only a part of "Allah" is present, Akbar is fully off flan.
Title: Re: 6 Dams of Akbar to be identified
Post by: Figleaf on June 18, 2014, 09:21:57 PM
 :thumbsup:

Peter