World of Coins

Modern Asian coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens => Indonesia => Topic started by: thelawnet on November 22, 2008, 12:34:29 AM

Title: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: thelawnet on November 22, 2008, 12:34:29 AM
The Netherlands Indies also had silver coins as well.In fact,the silver 1/10 & 1/4 Gulden coins were still in circulation as late as 1945.They were all struck at the Royal Dutch Mint in Utrecht,apart from the 1942-45 issues,which were struck in America.

The coins of the British Occupation of Java are not very well-known among most collectors of British Commonwealth coins.Hopefully,by education,we can change this,& stir a bit of interest.I was certainly very pleased when I picked up the 1815 1 Stiver.

Sorry I missed out 'in Indonesia' from 'last silver coins to be minted'. 

I'm not sure to what extent the 1942-1945 coins ever circulated, as on the Dutch return to the Indies the currency situation had been horribly inflated by masses of Japanese paper gulden and subsequently by the Dutch themselves, and so the silver coins were worth a lot more as bullion (or simply hoarded) than as coins.

Certainly most of them for these dates seem to show very little wear. The coppers (1/2,1 and 2 1/2 cents), on the other hand, were accepted as legal tender in Indonesia until 1953 (the Indonesians never bothered to re-monetize the silver coinage, presmably because it would have seen ludicrous to do so for the weak rupiah to actually be backed by silver - instead they re-printed Dutch 10 and 25 sen notes of 1947, and from 1952 actually made their own coins, though this was soon worthless as a result of inflation, while the higher denominations (1, and 2 1/2 gulden, which were minted by the Dutch for the Indies only in 1943 - in previous years they stuck to standard Dutch guilders) were done in new 1948-dated De Javasche Bank paper (issued in 1950)).
Title: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1956
Post by: Figleaf on November 25, 2008, 01:29:24 AM
There is an excellent book - in English - available on Google books, or from the Indian publishers (reprint from a 1931 Spink publication) Asian Educational Services - Coins of the Dutch East India, which explains much background information about these coins. The book is very cheaply priced at 495 rupees (about $10), although the publishers have not responded to my inquiry about shipping costs yet. Western book dealers want around $80 for this book. 90% of the pages are available on Google books, though you may have to clear your cookies and renew your IP address after you view a certain number of pages.

I think you mean  Coins of the Dutch East Indies (http://books.google.nl/books?id=uubaJnmIGZAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Coins+of+the+Dutch+East%22&ei=GEUrSa6IKZTEzATsrJyAAw) by John Bucknill...

Peter
Title: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1956
Post by: Figleaf on November 26, 2008, 03:08:00 PM
I'm not sure to what extent the 1942-1945 coins ever circulated, as on the Dutch return to the Indies the currency situation had been horribly inflated by masses of Japanese paper gulden and subsequently by the Dutch themselves, and so the silver coins were worth a lot more as bullion (or simply hoarded) than as coins.

Certainly most of them for these dates seem to show very little wear. The coppers (1/2,1 and 2 1/2 cents), on the other hand, were accepted as legal tender in Indonesia until 1953 (the Indonesians never bothered to re-monetize the silver coinage, presmably because it would have seen ludicrous to do so for the weak rupiah to actually be backed by silver - instead they re-printed Dutch 10 and 25 sen notes of 1947, and from 1952 actually made their own coins, though this was soon worthless as a result of inflation, while the higher denominations (1, and 2 1/2 gulden, which were minted by the Dutch for the Indies only in 1943 - in previous years they stuck to standard Dutch guilders) were done in new 1948-dated De Javasche Bank paper (issued in 1950)).

In the period 1942 to 1945, the Dutch government had bronze coins struck in three US mints. Silver one and 2-1/2 gulden pieces were struck in Denver, pursuant to royal decree of 20th July 1944, published in the National Journal (Staatsblad) E 54. All of these occur in circulated condition. Presumably, they were used in liberated areas, such as New Guinea.

In the years 1945 to 1956, the same coppers were issued with frozen date. As pressure from the US for Indonesia's independence mounted, shipments were halted and coins were stored in the Netherlands, which explains why so many still look good.

It would seem unlikely that the Dutch inflated the money supply further, as their monetary policy at home was basically a sharp contraction of the money supply.

Peter
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1956
Post by: thelawnet on November 27, 2008, 12:19:13 AM
In the period 1942 to 1945, the Dutch government had bronze coins struck in three US mints. Silver one and 2-1/2 gulden pieces were struck in Denver, pursuant to royal decree of 20th July 1944, published in the National Journal (Staatsblad) E 54. All of these occur in circulated condition. Presumably, they were used in liberated areas, such as New Guinea.

In the years 1945 to 1956, the same coppers were issued with frozen date. As pressure from the US for Indonesia's independence mounted, shipments were halted and coins were stored in the Netherlands, which explains why so many still look good.

1956???

Do you mean 1946?

Quote
It would seem unlikely that the Dutch inflated the money supply further, as their monetary policy at home was basically a sharp contraction of the money supply.

Indeed. The Indonesians attempted something similar in 1946, following the Dutch geldzuivering, by deflating debts, and issuing all citizens with 1rp of new money. Complete failure of course, given the isolated and economically weak state of their administration.

Nonetheless, the situation in the Indies was rather different from that at home. Pre-war money supply was 500 million gulden. SBNC printed the 1943 'NICA' gulden in 1942 in the US, these were to replace the pre-war Dutch issue. They were not politically/economically able to do this, and the 10 gulden notes and below were remonetized. They later introduced the 1946 series (5, 10 and 25 gulden) in 1947, and in 1948 remonetized all the pre-war money as well. There were however a number of measures to control the exchange rate and inflation, including complete government control over foreign exchange (except for a few oil companies), a scheme to sell exports at low (local currency) rates in return for being able to buy rice and clothes at cheaper prices. They also strongly increased the supply of imported goods in order to underpin the currency. Still, the upshot was a massively increased money supply.

At the end of the War in 1949, the Indonesians were obliged to accept all Dutch money as valid, and in 1950 with 3.9 billion gulden circulating, they cut the banknotes in half to attempt to reduce the money supply by 50%.

As for coinage the Dutch first came up with a full series of coinage for the Indies in 1854, albeit only up to 1/4 gulden. The regular Netherlands silver 1/2 gulden, 1 gulden and 2 1/2 gulden and the gold 5 and 10 gulden were used as well - the former three remain very common in Indonesia, the latter two not so.
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: Figleaf on November 27, 2008, 03:03:07 AM
Sorry, that should have been 1950 (the transfer took place in December 1949). Your last para ignores the coins issued under William I, though you could argue the series was incomplete, because the 10 cents was not included. Also, there were complete pre-decimal series. The 1854 series were the first decimal coins struck in sufficient quantity to meet local demand, though.

Peter
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: thelawnet on November 27, 2008, 03:42:19 AM
Sorry, that should have been 1950 (the transfer took place in December 1949). Your last para ignores the coins issued under William I, though you could argue the series was incomplete, because the 10 cents was not included. Also, there were complete pre-decimal series. The 1854 series were the first decimal coins struck in sufficient quantity to meet local demand, though.

Peter

I wouldn't really consider the coins of Willaim I a 'series'.

The 1/4 and 1/2 guldens were all issued in 1826, 1827 and 1834, but the 1 guldens were issued only in 1821, 1839 and 1840, in the latter year 1/4 guldens were issued too. They do share a common theme and text, but then you have to consider the coppers of this period, while the silver coins were minted in Utretcht, the coppers were Surabya-minted INDIAE BATAV duits in 1821, from 1822-1828 NEDERL INDIE stuiver fractions, 1833-1841 cent and 2 cent NEDERL INDIE coins, and '1790' 1827-1843 VOC duits (the latter I assume were minted in Batavia, on Utrecht dies).

Actually the more plausible 'series', is that of 1802, the rather attractive 'ship' series of 'INDIAE BATAVORUM' silver coinage (of 1/16 - 1 gulden), along with the 1802-1809 'INDIAE BATAV' duits, but the latter had actually been intended for the Cape of Good Hope not the Indies, so the completion of this series would actually be with old VOC coins that were being minted alongside the INDIAE BATAV ones, but it's also hard to argue that VOC and Batavian Republic coins were a 'series'.
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: Rangnath on December 03, 2008, 12:18:30 AM
Is there any chance that thelawnet or figleaf have images of the coins mentioned above?  Anything would help.
richie
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: thelawnet on December 03, 2008, 12:25:23 AM
Is there any chance that thelawnet or figleaf have images of the coins mentioned above?  Anything would help.
richie

Are you referring to any coins in particular?
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: Rangnath on December 03, 2008, 12:28:03 AM
Well, I'd love to see examples of the any of the following for starts:

"Actually the more plausible 'series', is that of 1802, the rather attractive 'ship' series of 'INDIAE BATAVORUM' silver coinage (of 1/16 - 1 gulden), along with the 1802-1809 'INDIAE BATAV' duits, but the latter had actually been intended for the Cape of Good Hope not the Indies, so the completion of this series would actually be with old VOC coins that were being minted alongside the INDIAE BATAV ones, but it's also hard to argue that VOC and Batavian Republic coins were a 'series'."

richie
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: thelawnet on December 03, 2008, 02:33:04 AM
Well, I'd love to see examples of the any of the following for starts:

"Actually the more plausible 'series', is that of 1802, the rather attractive 'ship' series of 'INDIAE BATAVORUM' silver coinage (of 1/16 - 1 gulden), along with the 1802-1809 'INDIAE BATAV' duits, but the latter had actually been intended for the Cape of Good Hope not the Indies, so the completion of this series would actually be with old VOC coins that were being minted alongside the INDIAE BATAV ones, but it's also hard to argue that VOC and Batavian Republic coins were a 'series'."

richie

These are KM77 (1/16 with ship in circle), KM78 (1/16 no circle around ship), KM79 (1/8 ship in circle), KM80 (1/8 no circle around ship), KM81 (1/4 ship in circle), KM81a (gold KM81), KM82 (1/2 ship in circle), KM82a (gold KM82), KM83 (1 ship in circle), KM83a (gold KM82)

Images try here:

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_image_only.php?img=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.ha.com%2Flf%3Fsource%3Durl%5Bfile%3Aimages%2Finetpub%2FNewNames%2F300%2F4%2F2%2F2%2F422556.jpg%5D%2Ccontinueonerror%5Btrue%5D%26source%3Durl%5Bfile%3Aimages%2Finetpub%2Fwebuse%2Fno_image_available.gif%5D%2Cif%5B('global.source.error')%5D%26sink

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_image_only.php?img=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.ha.com%2Flf%3Fsource%3Durl%5Bfile%3Aimages%2Finetpub%2FNewNames%2F300%2F4%2F2%2F2%2F422570.jpg%5D%2Ccontinueonerror%5Btrue%5D%26source%3Durl%5Bfile%3Aimages%2Finetpub%2Fwebuse%2Fno_image_available.gif%5D%2Cif%5B('global.source.error')%5D%26sink

The 1/2 gulden in gold is listed at $2k, but I suspect this is far too low, as the full set sold for $34k in 2006:

http://www.doylenewyork.com/damoncoins/damoncoins.htm

An XF gold 1 gulden sold in London in September, realised £6k against £2.5k-£3.5k estimate:

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/lot-archive/lot.php?department=Coins&lot_id=160054
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1956
Post by: translateltd on December 03, 2008, 02:37:12 AM
1956???

Do you mean 1946?


Funny, 1956 didn't strike me as odd when I read it, since Dutch New Guinea had been mentioned and this territory didn't leave Dutch ownership till 1962.  Interesting to see it was still a typo after all :-)

Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: Rangnath on December 03, 2008, 05:33:41 PM
Thanks Thelawnet, I enjoyed the 'INDIAE BATAVORUM' series. 
If I could have a word with the designer though, I'd gently say, "nice job! But get rid of the Parentheses and let the date stand alone. And do try getting the ship and waves in proper linear and aerial perspective."
richie
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: thelawnet on December 03, 2008, 06:09:30 PM
Thanks Thelawnet, I enjoyed the 'INDIAE BATAVORUM' series. 
If I could have a word with the designer though, I'd gently say, "nice job! But get rid of the Parentheses and let the date stand alone. And do try getting the ship and waves in proper linear and aerial perspective."
richie

I like the ships. They look 'old'.
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: thelawnet on February 02, 2009, 02:18:57 AM
Well, I'd love to see examples of the any of the following for starts:

"Actually the more plausible 'series', is that of 1802, the rather attractive 'ship' series of 'INDIAE BATAVORUM' silver coinage (of 1/16 - 1 gulden), along with the 1802-1809 'INDIAE BATAV' duits, but the latter had actually been intended for the Cape of Good Hope not the Indies, so the completion of this series would actually be with old VOC coins that were being minted alongside the INDIAE BATAV ones, but it's also hard to argue that VOC and Batavian Republic coins were a 'series'."

richie

Here's a Chinese-chopmarked specimen of the largest coin, from ebay:

(http://i17.ebayimg.com/02/i/001/2f/7d/fc18_1.JPG)
(http://i19.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/2f/7d/fb63_1.JPG)
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: Figleaf on February 02, 2009, 02:38:39 AM
If I could have a word with the designer though, I'd gently say, "nice job! But get rid of the Parentheses and let the date stand alone. And do try getting the ship and waves in proper linear and aerial perspective."

Everything is relative. This is one of the nicest design for the NEI. Most were just text, numbers and the VOC logo and what looks good is really, really scarce.

My bet would be that the chop marks came from local Chinese, not from China. Still, the locals ought to be familiar with the quality of the coin. Maybe they were tested for forgeries.

Peter
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: thelawnet on February 02, 2009, 02:48:23 AM
Everything is relative. This is one of the nicest design for the NEI. Most were just text, numbers and the VOC logo and what looks good is really, really scarce.

Actually the VOC monogram coins have designs on the other side. I like the VOC duits - everybody likes lions. Of course, the nice ones like this:

(http://www.britishmuseum.org/images/k146176_l.jpg)

are very scarce indeed. Incidentally, the BM have it as a 'ducat' and a 'trade coin' (http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/cm/g/gold_ducat_of_the_dutch_east_i.aspx). I sent them an email questioning this, but have not received a response yet.

The really ugly ones are the JAVA duits, either VOC or Louis Napoleon.

Speaking of which, how do you think this coin (complete with inaccurate Wikipedia-taken writeup) ended up in the ground in London? http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=16946&cat=103&limit=recent&date=1232363063 Edit: not in the ground, on the banks of the Thames


Perhaps the owner should list it on ebay as a 'Middlesex penny'

Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: Figleaf on February 02, 2009, 03:11:21 AM
Several possible ways. To name a few:

- East Indiaman heading home is surprised by storm and seeks shelter in London / does not intend to go back to Amsterdam now that it is occupied by France / is intercepted by the British navy and brought to London
- crew member / disgruntled soldier is taken prisoner / enlists in British military / has escaped from the French who want to hang him for smuggling stuff to Britain / had to abandon ship as it was too damaged / decides there won't be another trip to the NEI to spend the coin and throws it out / tries to pay the ferrymen with the wrong coin, coin gets tossed into the water / throws worthless coin at mudlarks to see them dive / loses coin while working ropes / oars / stepping into ferry / pulling sloop ashore.

The gold and silver duit coins were struck in the Netherlands and not shipped to the NEI. They were popular new year gifts, used in jewelry and as talisman. The mintmaster struck and sold them for his own account, often more or less illegally, though few if anyone cared. They are not coins and did not circulate.

I think the ugliest NEI coins are the bonks.

Peter
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: thelawnet on February 02, 2009, 03:18:43 AM
Several possible ways. To name a few:

- East Indiaman heading home is surprised by storm and seeks shelter in London / does not intend to go back to Amsterdam now that it is occupied by France / is intercepted by the British navy and brought to London
- crew member / disgruntled soldier is taken prisoner / enlists in British military / has escaped from the French who want to hang him for smuggling stuff to Britain / had to abandon ship as it was too damaged / decides there won't be another trip to the NEI to spend the coin and throws it out / tries to pay the ferrymen with the wrong coin, coin gets tossed into the water / throws worthless coin at mudlarks to see them dive / loses coin while working ropes / oars / stepping into ferry / pulling sloop ashore.

The duits were perhaps more likely to have been on their way to the Indies, given that they were worth twice as much there (relative to silver), so you really wouldn't want to bring them back with you.

Quote
I think the ugliest NEI coins are the bonks.

Yet very collectible for the reason that they don't look like coins at all.
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: Rangnath on February 02, 2009, 03:28:05 AM
and the chop mark didn't pierce the sail! 
can you afford it thelawnet?
richie
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: Figleaf on February 02, 2009, 03:37:15 AM
The duits were perhaps more likely to have been on their way to the Indies, given that they were worth twice as much there (relative to silver), so you really wouldn't want to bring them back with you.

The sailors were not allowed to transport them to or from the NEI. They would smuggle them on the way to the NEI, mostly by swallowing them before they were checked in port before coming on board. It is therefore pretty unlikely to have been on its way to the NEI. They would still be "internalized" or retrieved and stashed away in the sailor's belongings.

On coming back, the coins would be worthless, but we know that the sailors often had a few left and would throw them to the mudlarks to avoid being caught with them leaving the ship, because when tunnels were made for the Amsterdam underground, construction workers found large amount of VOC duit coins where the harbour front had been.

Peter
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: thelawnet on February 02, 2009, 03:45:42 AM
and the chop mark didn't pierce the sail! 
can you afford it thelawnet?
richie

It is up for $100 starting bid. KM suggests $200 in UNC, $120 in XF, $80 in VF, and $45 in F.

I know marks on things like 8 Reals, ducats, etc. can enhance the value of coins, because the base coins are so common, but I'm not sure in this case.

This 1/8 gulden is currently at $214 (book value is $110 in UNC):

(http://www.frozengold.com/ebay/auctions/1-25-09/13714899.jpg)

The seller makes a living out of entombing his coins, a process which transforms common $2 coins into pieces that fetch for $30, so I think that price is inflated by the plastic collectors. Admittedly it does seem to have beautiful lustre, but I won't buy into the slabbing game (it's definitely profitable if you do - the 'Millennia collection' sold last year included numerous Indies (and other) coins acquired in a 2004 auction, where they were not slabbed, and where in 2004 they were described as 'XF or better' by the auctioneer, by the time they'd been sent for slabbing by the mysterious multimillionaire who'd acquired vast numbers of expensive coins for investment purposes they became things like 'NGC MS-63', for the same coin, and sold for double the price).
Title: Re: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949
Post by: Figleaf on February 02, 2009, 02:47:15 PM
The game is, you keep sending them to grading companies, until they get graded by someone who's just slightly more relaxed or less careful and you get the grade you want.

It reminds me of what a chess grand master once said: all you have to do to become a grand master is win from the weakest grand master on his worst day. Therefore, in the end, the whole world can become a grand master. Similarly, in the end, all coins will be unc in the eyes of "professional" graders. I think this is exactly why BU has been invented.

Peter
Title: Netherlands East Indies, 1942-1949.
Post by: BC Numismatics on February 03, 2009, 01:47:58 AM
The Yank practice of slabbing,plus the Sheldon grading system has actually done a lot of harm to numismatics,in my opinion.

I just stick to simple solutions for simple problems.

Aidan.