World of Coins

Modern Asian coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens => Indian subcontinent: Mughal, Princely states and colonial (1526-1947) => Mughal central government => Topic started by: saro on November 21, 2012, 04:19:45 PM

Title: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: saro on November 21, 2012, 04:19:45 PM
Shah Jahan Qandahar 1052 AH / yr 15 - 10,03g -
legend : "Shah Jaha-ni falus 15" / "Qandhar zarb 1052"

This half dam of Shah Jahan isn't in high grade but is legible and from, I think, an unusual mint.
As far I know, no copper coins from Qandahar in Afghanistan, with Shah Jahan's name are known, and I think that this coin could be better from the other Qandahar in Deccan ?

Rupees of Shah Jahan are known from this Deccan mint but what about copper which seems unlisted?
A half dam may indicate that the full dam do exist, did somebody could confirm?
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: saro on November 24, 2012, 08:03:10 AM
 ??? Qandahar in Afghanistan or Deccan ? No idea ?
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: capnbirdseye on November 24, 2012, 11:43:04 AM
Could be a great rarity,  :o one on zeno is RRR    http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=47264 (http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=47264)
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: saro on November 24, 2012, 12:52:36 PM
Dear Capnbirdseye, thousand thanks for your information, I haven't seen it on zeno...
Both coins are similar and the only difference, except the AH date, is that on mine there is the ry.15  in the loop of the "s" of falus and on zeno, a dotted flower.
 
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: capnbirdseye on November 24, 2012, 01:09:03 PM
I think the one on zeno probably belongs to Oesho, I expect he will add comments when he sees this thread. you possibly have one of only two known 1/2 dams  of this mint  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: akona20 on November 24, 2012, 01:14:35 PM
Qandahar in Afghanistan was certainly under Mughal control at this time so it will be interesting.
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: Oesho on November 24, 2012, 03:54:42 PM
Quote
I think the one on zeno probably belongs to Oesho, I expect he will add comments when he sees this thread. you possibly have one of only two known 1/2 dams  of this mint

The coin on ZENO was auctioned at the ONS-auction in Oct. 2007 and sold for € 39,00 to a Dutch collector, not being me  :'(. 
It must indeed be a very rare issue, and I haven't come across any other. The provenance of the ZENO specimen is from the Pakistan/Afghanistan area, so it must be an issue of Qandahar in Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: saro on November 25, 2012, 10:05:39 AM
Dear Oesho, thank you very much for your reply and light on this coin.
It appears that, like for the zeno one, this half dam is coming from the same area (Penjab and Afghanistan) together with few mughal coins from Lahore, Multan and silver and copper Durrani.
So that confirms with no great doubt that it comes from Qandahar afghan mughal mint.

May be other exemplars will appear on WoC ?... 
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: akona20 on November 25, 2012, 10:18:33 AM
What a great thread. Some history and some numismatics. Combined we have a the answer.
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: Coinsforever on November 25, 2012, 11:56:42 AM
I think the one on zeno probably belongs to Oesho, I expect he will add comments when he sees this thread. you possibly have one of only two known 1/2 dams  of this mint  8) 8) 8)

Does it means coins of Qandahar mint are scarce , I find most of the auctions houses keeping prices for Qandahar mint  quite high  in comparison to coins of other mints for same ruler.


Cheers ;D
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: capnbirdseye on November 25, 2012, 12:00:34 PM
The fact that there are two known dates shows that presumably there must have been at least a small number of these minted, obviously some might be in collections where the mint is off the flan or possibly a small hoard is still waiting to be found.
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: rja on November 25, 2012, 06:49:35 PM
I've noted a couple offerings of this coin in Steve Album's lists  (He identifies this as KM-204.6 - but my most recent catalog only goes up to KM-204.5):

List 244, May 2009
812245. MUGHAL: Shah Jahan I, 1628-1658, AE ½ dam (9.93g),
Qandahar, AH1051 year 15, KM-204.6, crude f $60


List 263,  August 2011
109971. MUGHAL: Shah Jahan I, 1628-1658, AE ½ dam (7.97g),
Qandahar, AH1048, KM-204.6, vg $35
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: saro on November 26, 2012, 09:55:48 AM
Many thanks rja for these informations,  now 3 half dams are known for Qandahar : 1051 without ry (zeno), 1051 / yr 15 (S.Album) and 1052/yr15.
I have not picture of KM.204.6 but with a weight near 8g, it could be this Qandahar falus dated 1048 struck just after the city fell into Shah Jahan's hand (in 1047)??:

http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=106605

This last falus fits with afghan civic copper weight, few others of this type are known (all dated 1048) which  weight between 8 and 8,5g,  may be this falus was replaced few years later by a coin of mughal standard : the 1/2 dam : +/- 10g ?

Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: abhinumis on December 01, 2017, 04:42:40 AM
Here is te 4th one, dear Bernard sir. The coins are rare in my opinion and I have strong reasons to believe that they were minted in Afghan Qandahar.. mine is 1051AH/Ry15
Awaiting everyone's comments
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: saro on December 03, 2017, 02:14:24 PM
Here is te 4th one, dear Bernard sir. The coins are rare in my opinion and I have strong reasons to believe that they were minted in Afghan Qandahar.. mine is 1051AH/Ry15
Awaiting everyone's comments
What a beautiful coin ! :perfect:
I agree with you upon the mint place and to say that it's a rare coin which could have been struck only for a short time at end of AH 1051 & beginning of AH 1052, to fit with the ry. 15 which is for the moment (...) the only one known.
(If I am correct, the ry. 15 starts on shahriwar 18th 1051 and ends on shahriwar 17th 1052 ).
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: Figleaf on December 03, 2017, 02:23:08 PM
@abhnumis: can you share your reasons for believing the coins is minted in the Afghan Qandahar with us?

Peter
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: abhinumis on December 04, 2017, 06:27:27 PM
Peter there are more than one reasons why this coin should be attributed to Afghan Qandahar rather than Deccan Qandahar. I'll enlist them--

1) All known coins so far(6 specimen that I could find) are half dams with no dams ever recorded. We know that right from Akbar till this coin, half dams are far more common for Afghan mints of Kabul and Qandahar. Although dam, chau tanki and do tanki is known in Akbar Kabul and quarter dam in Akbar Qandahar, they are rare and all other are essentially half dams including Jahangir Shud Rawan issues.
2) Deccan Qandahar issues in silver are known in Ry5, Ry 7 and Ry 8. No coins in any metal is known after Ry8. This coincide with the Deccan campaign of Shah Jahan and can be concluded that the issues from Deccan Qandahar were limited only during the Deccan campaign. On the other hand , Afghan Qandahar issued silvers from Ry12 till Ry 21 on regular basis. This copper coin dated Ry15 coincide when Afghan Qandahar mint was active..
3) On rigorous searching , I have come across another similar coin dating 1051AH but without Ry on flan and 1051AH/ry15. It is far more likely that an active mint issues copper than an inactive mint all of a sudden.
4) Out of these 6 coins, that I have documented in my archive, atleast 4 were definitely found in Pakistan, hence pointing towards Afghan Qandahar.
5) As Shailen Bhandare documented in his masterly article 'Numismatic vestiges of Shah Jahan's deccan campaign' published in JONS 162, the copper coins during Deccan campaign were minted in nizamashahi standard and not on dam standard including Ahmednagar, Fatehabad Dharur and Zafarnagar..
Thus I conclude.
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: mitresh on December 04, 2017, 08:22:46 PM
Lovely coin Abhishek, congrats.
Title: Re: Shah Jahan 1/2 dam Qandahar 1052 AH yr 15: Afghanistan or Deccan ?
Post by: Figleaf on December 04, 2017, 08:56:43 PM
Excellent, Abishek and indeed quite convincing. Thank you!

Peter