World of Coins

Modern Asian coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens => Indian subcontinent: Mughal, Princely states and colonial (1526-1947) => Mughal central government => Topic started by: rja on October 26, 2012, 08:01:22 AM

Title: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: rja on October 26, 2012, 08:01:22 AM
Can someone help me with the mint?
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: asm on October 26, 2012, 09:16:28 AM
Did you see this? Is it the first time ever that I've seen such a symbol on Akbar Dams.

Amit
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: akona20 on October 26, 2012, 09:19:23 AM
Umm rather early for that and two it is a flower of some sort, perhaps someone could lighten the image for me.
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: asm on October 26, 2012, 09:26:44 AM
Umm rather early for that and two it is a flower of some sort,
To me it sure looks like a Katar.........

perhaps someone could lighten the image for me.
Done.........

Amit
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: asm on October 26, 2012, 09:30:42 AM
rja,

Can you post larger, higher resolution pictures by embedding them? This coin sure is interesting. If you are unable to do so, just PM me and I will give you my email id. If you send the image to me, I will gladly do that.

Amit
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: akona20 on October 26, 2012, 09:31:40 AM
Oh dear Amit we know about these discussions. No closed circle so therefore I must doubt it.
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: asm on October 26, 2012, 09:50:48 AM
Dear Arthur,

This is what I see...........

Amit
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: Figleaf on October 26, 2012, 08:47:53 PM
FWIW, I see the katar. Doesn't look like a counterstamp.

Peter
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: akona20 on October 26, 2012, 09:59:22 PM
I see something, but I see no Khatar. Even a fairly recently written paper on the so called evolution of the Khatar to try to prove something else did not have anything like this drawn to show anything.
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: Oesho on October 27, 2012, 12:06:58 AM
It's definitely a katar, which is depicted on the reverse of this Dam.
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: akona20 on October 27, 2012, 01:26:52 AM
Okay given the date let's discuss the significance.
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: rja on October 27, 2012, 06:00:15 AM
Here are some additional pictures.
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: saro on October 27, 2012, 05:22:57 PM
I join asm : I have never seen such a dam...may be the weight could be of some help : +/- 20g ?
if reverse could be read as "fi sanah nuhsad wa (ha)shtad ?" (98x), the obverse seems (to me) without any signification with a curious script..
I wonder if a mirror image of this obverse doesn't give in center a word which looks like a degenerated word "falu(s)" ?

just a suggestion, as I am sure of nothing...
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: Figleaf on October 27, 2012, 05:35:53 PM
I wonder if a mirror image of this obverse doesn't give in center a word which looks like a degenerated word "falu(s)" ?

just a suggestion, as I am sure of nothing...

If so, that would be an important hint. Amateur die cutters' most occurring mistake is forgetting to work in mirror image, which of course results in a mirror image on the coin. This is not the sort of error I have seen on mughal coins, except in dates and regnal years, typically the job of an apprentice die cutter.

Peter
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: rja on October 27, 2012, 06:22:00 PM
The weight is 19.2 grams.
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: akona20 on October 27, 2012, 11:17:02 PM
Such a symbol is seen on a couple of mints from Shah Alam 11 reign. Given what saro has said time to dig out the literature and see if the coins are illustrated.
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: Overlord on October 28, 2012, 04:02:24 AM
here is the mirror image:
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: Overlord on October 28, 2012, 04:07:01 AM
We have seen a few such coins from Dogaon (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,13822.msg95922.html#msg95922) on this board and that would be my guess for now.
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: saro on October 28, 2012, 09:00:59 AM
Yes, I fully agree with you dear Overlord for Dogaon and many thanks for having posted this inverted image.

Yesterday evening I studied this coin and the best I have found is that "GA" of "Dogaon" (in fact Dogam) and may be "DO" (in center with D and O linked ?)  could be read in the original image, with some optimism...and inverted "LAM" (of dar al Islam") on the mirror image, at 11 o'clock.
The "M"  is sometimes written on these coins like a "9" (cf Mitchiner 3088 / dar al-Islam, wrongly named dar al-khalifat)
Such an obverse doesn't seem to me to have been struck with an official mughal die, and so we may doubt for the reverse..
As observed in this discussion  by Akona20, the  katar appears on very later mughal issues (Shah Alam II) and of course on many states coins (Bharatpur)

Please notice that It's just my feeling and may be I am wrong...
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: akona20 on October 28, 2012, 09:08:48 AM
My eyes are good today and I can see what you describe. Discussion leads to decisions and on some of these it takes time to work through things.

Mitchener has not been the only one to make this mistake I am sure.
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: saro on October 28, 2012, 09:35:00 AM
But in the present case Mitch.3088 is right, I apologize, this Dogaon's dam clearly dated 981 is well with the epithet "dar al-khalifat".
(I looked at another when writing...)
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: akona20 on October 28, 2012, 09:39:26 AM
Oh Okay, I was rather looking at an obscure reference that appears to have made the mistake described. Some of these coins are fun.
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: rja on November 21, 2012, 04:43:37 AM
Amit reported the following to me:

This morning I have received a reply from Mr Shailen Bhandare - an expert on Indian coins as follows:

 The Akbar Dam with a Katar is an imitation of the Dogaon fulus - but it is not yet certain who was resposible for it. There exists a series of such imitations, both full and half Fulus and with/without the Katar. One possibility is the Meo tribal chieftaincy which was located to the SW of Delhi and in rebellion off and on.
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: Oesho on November 21, 2012, 10:10:30 PM
The side with the mintname show some similarity with the Dogaon (http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=79843) pieces.
I discussed this coin recently with Shailendra Bhandare and he agreed with it, however it is not an official issue of Dogaon, but probably a contemporary counterfeit. That may also explains the unusual motif of a katar on the side with the date.
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: saro on November 24, 2012, 09:33:51 AM
 For additionnal information on Dogaon's mint, in his notes on mughal mints (Calcutta museum catalogue), Nelson Wright said : " The mint seems to have been removed from BahraĆ®ch to Dogaon to supply the copper coins required for the trade between India and Nepal".

May be "non mughal" workshops have taken this opportunity and struck copies of the Dogaon's dams?

 
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: Overlord on December 23, 2012, 12:41:02 PM
Andrew Liddle has illustrated a copper with the same symbol in his books. See #20 under "MYSTERIES".
Title: Re: Unidentified Akbar Dam
Post by: saro on December 23, 2012, 06:41:20 PM
Dear Overlord, it's very nice to have spotted that  : the same "katar" symbol on another dam !
A.Liddle #20 "mystery" has also really mysterious legends, even completly different... :-\