World of Coins

Medieval coins => Indian subcontinent: early Islamic Sultanates => Topic started by: saro on January 26, 2012, 02:32:28 PM

Title: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: saro on January 26, 2012, 02:32:28 PM
This is a small copper coin of 1,35g / 11 mm diameter with full legend on both obverse and reverse.
it isn't catalogued by S.Goron & Goenka, may be this type has already been published?

legend : "Sher Shah 945 / abu al-muzaffar "
among the 3 symbols :there are a moon crescent and may be a star or sun, not clear due to oxydation. (It seems that there is a supplementary "alif", at 5 o'clock on reverse, which has no place for reading? )

The weight fits with a 1/16 paisa. Any information on it from WOC members will be welcome.
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: Coinsforever on January 26, 2012, 10:48:23 PM
Remarkable calligraphy sketch drawn by you , unfortunately my skills are not enough to attribute this coin.

I like the way you have  deeply detailed every corner of coin on drawing.


Cheers ;D
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: Oesho on January 27, 2012, 12:41:58 AM
An extraordinary discovery. The denomination is known, but the date and legend is new.

As there is so much of green field around the image, I have cropped them together.
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: Figleaf on January 27, 2012, 12:47:35 AM
Congratulations saro and many thanks for posting it here. Spectacular coin, magnificent analysis. My day is made. 8)

Peter
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: akona20 on January 27, 2012, 02:05:22 AM
and my day also.

I was almost going to report a new date for a mint in my study however I think the writer of the article took a minor liberty in his assessment of part of the date. Perhaps coin in hand might show more.
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: saro on January 27, 2012, 09:15:20 AM
Many thanks for your replies.
Sorry, my scans are not of high quality and details like the date are not easily visible on them.
But there is no doubt for the date on the coin which is well 945.
I'll try to post a scan soon...
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: saro on January 27, 2012, 10:26:07 AM
The coin is oxidized with a nice brown patina. Here a new picture which better shows the date.
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: Coinsforever on January 27, 2012, 11:15:54 AM
Cropped and sharpen image for reference of all.


Cheers ;D
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: capnbirdseye on January 27, 2012, 12:06:49 PM
There is a die identical 1/16th Paisa on CoinIndia galleries, 

 http://coinindia.com/GG-D941ff-Sher%20Shah%20AE-MH02.63.jpg

I would guess it's from the same die & hence shows how rare it is as presumably they didn't cut another die for some reason

http://coinindia.com/galleries-suri.html
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: Oesho on January 27, 2012, 01:08:33 PM
The coin of Saro and the coin on Coinindia (http://coinindia.com/GG-D941ff-Sher%20Shah%20AE-MH02.63.jpg) is one and the same coin. If not, one has to do with a counterfeit!

Nevertheless the date is 950 (correctly given on Coinindia) and not 945 as Saro suggests.
The digit 5 is written like a reversed 3 or the Greek 'sigma'. This shows some similarity with the modern Arabic 4.
The small circle is not a 5, but represents the digit 0. This small circle ultimately became a dot.
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: saro on January 27, 2012, 03:15:04 PM
Dear Oesho, you are right for the date ! I have realized my mistake after having posted the scan..it's always confusing with the 0 and 5 used at this time.
The 2 coins are same (thank you Capnbirdseye for the link), something which is very strange..may be both are counterfeits ?
I am not able to judge, it looks genuine but now I have a doubt.
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: saro on January 27, 2012, 03:22:46 PM
In addition : there are 3 "alif" in front of "muzaffar" and " ""bu" (of abu), one is in excess as I noticed previously, such a mistake is curious from a Suri die engraver, may be that could indicate a fake ?
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: capnbirdseye on January 27, 2012, 04:12:28 PM
Did you acquire the coin recently  Saro?  I wonder who owns the one on the CoinIndia site ?

I have a 1/8 paisa attributed to Sher shah, also 11mm in size it's part date is AH94* ,when looking on Google to find one like mine I spotted the one like yours.
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: saro on January 27, 2012, 04:36:49 PM
I possess this coin since september 2009, I bought it from a UK collector of my knowledge, together with other Suri coppers (1/8 paisa D.969, 1 paisa of Biana mint, and common paisa in pretty grade...and genuine, I'm sure!) if this 1/16 paisa is a fake, no doubt he wasn't aware.
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: Oesho on January 27, 2012, 04:45:01 PM
I have written the owner of the website Coinindia whether he good give any information about the fractional paisa in his website. Let's wait and hear his reply.
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: Figleaf on January 27, 2012, 05:15:20 PM
Just a general reaction, nothing based on knowledge of the series:


So if the only argument is that there is (maybe) another coin just like it, I would say that chances that it is a fake are pretty low. There is little motivation for a contemporary counterfeit and no motivation for a modern fake.

Peter
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: capnbirdseye on January 27, 2012, 05:37:02 PM
The problem we have here is that it's not just two coins that look the same, they are seemingly identical right down to the smallest visible detail, they even have the same flaw in the flan at 6.oclock, as Oesho pointed out it's the same coin & either no longer owned by CoinIndia or one is somehow a clone of the other  ???
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: Oesho on January 28, 2012, 01:07:28 PM
Saro informed me that the coin was offered for sale on Coinindia (http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/coinindia/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=728) store.
I have no doubt that this coin has come, probably indirectly, in the possession of Saro. As I argued earlier that the we are talking about one and the same coin (if not we must consider it to be a forgery). The fact that the coin went via Coinindia store into trade, there is no doubt with me that this is the single item around of a very rare (in respect of denomination) and unpublished (in respect of legend) coin.
In that respect I envy Saro.
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: Figleaf on January 28, 2012, 01:14:00 PM
Once I live in France, I would be happy to midwife a meeting between saro and Oesho. 8) We live in between and have the spare bedrooms it takes. :)

Peter
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: capnbirdseye on January 28, 2012, 01:46:50 PM
A coin of the very highest rarity !!,  I'm very pleased for Saro now that the coins authenticity is without doubt as it was me that originally threw the cat amongst the Pigeons as it were   ;D
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: Figleaf on January 28, 2012, 04:07:12 PM
Don't blame yourself for anything, cap'n. Now, the coin's status is stronger. Nothing like peer review to firm things up. This is an exemplary thread.

Peter
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: saro on January 28, 2012, 05:40:15 PM
I have sent an Email to the person from whom I obtained this coin in 2009 to try to know if there is a link with the coin listed on "Coinindia", if I have informations I'll give them on WOC of course.
But I have now a great doubt on the authenticity, may be are they both copies of a 3rd coin ?...

Dear Capnbirdseye, thousand thanks for your help, sure Sherlock Holmes wouldn't have been better !  ;D
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: akona20 on January 28, 2012, 09:02:09 PM
At this time I really would not have grave doubts about its authenticity. Some coin edge pictures would be nice of course. However a simple explanation is that they were hoard coins from the same batch that found their way into the marketplace by the backdoor and have been distributed piecemeal.
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: saro on February 01, 2012, 04:30:14 PM
I have had a reply from the seller from whom I obtained this coin in september 2009, he says me :

"I have checked the coinindia site the coin could have been taken from a photo of mine....
Don’t despair, the coin i sent you is genuine.....!!"


So it seems that there is only one coin which has never been in hands of a person from Coinindia...I am not able to understand why and how it could have been put for sale on this website??... (a fictitious sale?)
In addition, he tells me that a photo of a coin of his (and which he still has in hand today) has been used to be published (without any authorization or contact) and even once "for sale" on eBay...
(if sold, I suppose the buyer has never seen the coin..)



 
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: Figleaf on February 02, 2012, 01:50:49 AM
Le vendeur dit simplement qu'on à pu utiliser un de ses photos chez Coinindia. Il a pu prendre ce photo bien avant septembre 2009. En fait, plusieurs de nos membres ont vu utiliser leurs photos pour des ventes aux enchères électroniques.

The seller just says that Coinindia may have used one of his photos. He could have taken that picture well before 2009. In fact, several of our members have seen their photos used for electronic auctions.

Peter
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: Oesho on February 02, 2012, 11:30:29 AM
Quote
Le vendeur dit simplement qu'on à pu utiliser un de ses photos chez Coinindia. Il a pu prendre ce photo bien avant septembre 2009. En fait, plusieurs de nos membres ont vu utiliser leurs photos pour des ventes aux enchères électroniques.

So to see, you may have reached your destination.
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: akona20 on February 02, 2012, 11:36:25 AM
Parlous vouz anglaise?

A small translation would help without me sending it to someone. I assume at this point a minor lapse in judgement by and from Coinindia.
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: akona20 on February 02, 2012, 11:56:03 AM
Note: I get the drift of what is said but I am rather unsettled by the inference for various reasons.
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: capnbirdseye on October 14, 2012, 07:44:49 PM
Sorry to reactivate this thread but seemingly the same coin is currently for sale here again

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/coinindia/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=728 (http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/coinindia/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=728)
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: saro on October 14, 2012, 08:28:23 PM
Thank you very much Capn, this coin is well still illustrated on coinindia webstore but with :"sorry this item has been sold" (not sold to me...and obtained at a very lower cost) I have never been able to know more on different steps to reach me.
I have great doubt upon its authenticity...
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: Arminius on October 14, 2012, 09:16:58 PM
With the coin in hand and a good loupe one may judge if the casting bubbles are corrosion pits, how the edge looks and if there is any ancient grown and old patination at the surface.

 ???
Title: Re: Delhi sultanate Sher Shah 1/16 paisa unpublished ?
Post by: saro on October 15, 2012, 10:23:08 AM
Dear Arminius,
according to your valuable remarks, I have had (once more..) a look at this coin, the story of which becomes a serialized novel on WoC...
- the rim isn't suspect with only few small cracks.
- small holes are mainly present at 10 o'clock on reverse (over end of "muzaffar"), they are gathered in a small area and may be coorrosion pits?
The difficulty is that the coin seems to have been covered with a kind of varnish which gives a bright clear brown aspect, (and also covered the pits of corrosion or casting bubbles?)
The rim has not this bright aspect.
I know that some numismatists of old times used to varnish their coins to preserve them and give them an attractive aspect, or by today forgers to give an old look to their fakes..
Unfortunately, I think it's better this last possibility. ???