World of Coins

Modern Asian coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens => Japan, North and South Korea => Topic started by: gxseries on January 14, 2012, 05:17:39 PM

Title: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: gxseries on January 14, 2012, 05:17:39 PM
I just received this recently:

(http://omnicoin.com/coins/1000559.jpg)

This is not something that I have seen before or even read before in any Korean coin catalog. This is a common 1/4 yang:

(http://www.omnicoin.com/coins/931437.jpg)

I don't think it's a counterfeit. This coin weighs 4.67g. What are your opinions on this?
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: translateltd on January 14, 2012, 08:39:14 PM
The blurred four in "1/4" and the fact that the letters in YANG are out of alignment make me think it's a modern forgery.

Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: weepio on January 15, 2012, 08:04:32 PM
Somehow the coin doesn't feel right to me. The word Yang is not aligned in the right way and also the reverse should be worn differently.
I hope I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: Afrasi on January 15, 2012, 08:59:53 PM
Also the dragon is not in the right position and has to be turned to fit a genuine coin.
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: gxseries on January 16, 2012, 02:00:45 AM
Afrasi, the rotation of the dragon shouldn't matter as a lot of the coins were never aligned right in the first place. I have a rather reasonable collection of Korean coins of this era and this can be seen at omnicoin.com

It was actually common in the earlier years that the fonts were of different sizes such as 1896 5 fun and 1898 5 fun (3 different font varities!)
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: natko on January 16, 2012, 12:20:11 PM
Afrasi meant rotation of the dragon relative to inscription around. Misaligned coin is not very uncommon as you said. Dragon in the upper coin is smaller, letters are clumsy, up and down. It's suspicious to me as well, but true weight is weird also.

If it's a genuine piece it might be from some smaller mint, struck in lack of small change. Just a theory though.
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: gxseries on January 16, 2012, 01:18:05 PM
Natko, I'm dead certain the misalignment was quite common back then. I have at least 40 coins of this era which you can view at omnicoin.com at this link: http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries?page=1&sort=year&sale=0&country=10073 (http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries?page=1&sort=year&sale=0&country=10073) Unless you have 100s of example that doesn't support this theory, please let me know. I will have to assume I bought a massive bunch of counterfeits in this case.

All of the photographs were taken carefully as I noticed the rotation was slightly off for some coins. It was only after 1905 that coin alignment became standardized from my observation.

I have missed an auction that sold a similar coin: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1898-Yr-2-Korea-1-4-Yang-VF-dirty-/180786497050?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a17b7061a (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1898-Yr-2-Korea-1-4-Yang-VF-dirty-/180786497050?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a17b7061a)
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: capnbirdseye on February 01, 2012, 06:08:18 PM
Compare it to mine posted on here a while back, like 99.9% of my coins it was purchased in the 1960's not likely to be a forgery etc.

I just had a look at the die rotation & it's completely opposite, in other words when I turn the coin horizontally it becomes upside down, if I flip it over vertically then each side is the right way up

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,11708.0.html



weight 4.78g
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: Afrasi on February 01, 2012, 06:46:10 PM
Dear gxseries!

You asked for opinions. I gave you mine.
Natko was so friendly to say it more concrete, what I mean. It has nothing to do with coin/medal alignment.
Also I have some Korean coins in my collection, too, including the genuine coin and the Japanese fake of this type.
I still believe this to be an interesting contemporary fake, which I would put in my collection, too.
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: gxseries on February 01, 2012, 10:35:35 PM
The alignment for this coin should be a coin alignment instead of a medal alignment, i.e. similar to the alignment US coins are struck.

With regards to the smaller dragon, smaller dragons were used on previous years such as this example

(http://omnicoin.com/coins/959186.jpg)

I'll send an email off to a collector who knows a lot about Korean coins. He owns the illusionary 1899 5 fun coin so he would know better.
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: Afrasi on February 01, 2012, 10:55:40 PM
I'll send an email off to a collector who knows a lot about Korean coins. He owns the illusionary 1899 5 fun coin so he would know better.

Yes, please, do so!  :D

But a last time: What I said above has really NOTHING !!! to do with coin or medal alignment.
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: andyg on February 01, 2012, 11:41:50 PM
What Afrasi I think is trying to explain is that the dragon on the coin on the bottom aligns with the dot at the end of "ΒΌ YANG", whereas on the the top coin the dragon aligns with the "N" in "YANG" - so the dragon pictured in the middle of the coin does not align with the writing around the edge (on the same side) in the same fasion on both coins.

I drew some lines on your pictures as example.
(I will of course remove the pictures from this post if you do so wish)
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: gxseries on February 02, 2012, 02:15:58 AM
Afrasi, I'm afraid I have trouble understanding what you are trying to explain.

Andyg, the alignment and design of the currently discussed 1/4 yang seems similar to the earlier 1/4 yang designs.

Now that I remember, this is an extract from a collector that mentioned about the 1898 1/4 yang a few years ago. Had to search for it.

===

Regarding the die alignment issue, there are a number of small varieties in the coins issued through 1902, including obverse-reverse alignment. A friend of mine has a 1/4 yang with an additional leaf on the obverse. If you want to collect varieties of an inexpensive date, I suggest the 1898 1/4 yang. I have at least seven varieties of that piece that include large and small characters on the reverse, large and small circles around the dragon, the dragons in different orientations, and different sizes and alignment of the denomination within the wreath on the obverse. I'm pretty sure that no one has even begun to catalog all the different varieties of this coin.

===


Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: capnbirdseye on February 02, 2012, 12:25:51 PM
Here is mine, 1897 an undoubted genuine coin bought 1965
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: Dany Kim on February 12, 2012, 03:02:59 PM
There are several varieties in 1898 1/4 yang but can be devided by two categories.

KM#1117 (lower one) : Dragon crowded by small tight cicle (dots of 62~70)

KM#1118 (upper one) : Dragon crowded by larger circle (dots of around 80)
1118 were counterfeits made on machinery supplied by the Japanese. These counterfeits were authorized for circulation by the Korean Government.

KM#1117(1898) have several sub-varieties and most of them were counterfeits made by private sectors.  Only one type having the same design with other 1/4 yang (1897, 1899~1904) is made by the Korean Government. 
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: Figleaf on February 13, 2012, 01:23:38 AM
Applying that to the coins shown in this thread, I get:

Initial message (gxseries upper picture): 84 pearls - contemporary counterfeit of KM 1117
Initial message (gxseries upper picture): 70 pearls - KM 1117
Reply 9 (gxseries): 80 pearls - tolerated contemporary counterfeit, KM 1118
Reply 13 (capnbirdseye): 70 pearls - KM 1117

Peter
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: capnbirdseye on February 13, 2012, 12:45:23 PM
here is an example of a presumed forgery for sale on Ebay, looks freshly made to me but I could be wrong
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: gxseries on June 16, 2012, 08:17:53 AM
Here's one that's slabbed. This variety must really exist.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140775647843 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140775647843)

Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: andyg on June 16, 2012, 10:44:07 AM
similar, but slightly different even so!
Note the alignment of the "G" to the dragons nose again.

These are a wonderful series, even if they were not authorised by the Korean government, they still circulated :)
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: capnbirdseye on June 16, 2012, 12:25:55 PM
I'm selling my extremely rare date 1897 1/4 yang if anyone's interested then PM me,
Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: natko on May 30, 2020, 09:39:54 PM
So, did we move somewhere in these several years on this topic? Has there been any variety listings, do we have more information gxseries, andy, others?

I've found a clear misindetification on KM numbers 1117/1118 on numista, but showing a variety:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces24480.html

They have different reverses and obverses but the circles are the same size, with 70 beads. At the first glance besides larger wreath I have noticed the shape of G in denomination, the left one is pointy elongated one the other one is round G. My example of this coin is similar to the right one but with lightly pointy G in rounder style, similar to gx's second piece so I guess that's the common, regular one - making it three varieties. Image is attached.


Also, I am not sure about two varieties shown on this fine website. Let's call original issue C1 and the better one, supposedly Japanese C2:
C1 http://www.moneta-coins.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2748

C2 http://www.moneta-coins.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2747

At the first glance the difference is not obvious, as their owner says, but the circle is a bit larger on C2. Precisely, if the original issue had 11.25 mm circle, the other measures 11.74 mm, by outer dimensions of the circle. Not that much and certainly not 12.5 mm which should supposedly be on Japanese one. To note, my coin is on the broader circle size when compared to these two and with what I can measure it's definitely notably less than 12mm. which seems correct for C1/C2. However, if C1 is struck on half milimeter broader planchet as stated (I always take diameters with reserve), the first one is not 11.25 then. I believe these coins are all around 20.5 mm but I don't own a caliper nor many do.

Weight, the only parameter that can be trusted online is stated low for the both 4.46 g and 4.52 g (vs 5.16 g for my example), which is similar to the first coin by gx (4.66 g). I'll also contact the owner of them.

Other details like bolder letters and feature might be more obvious on that one, although the details are pretty much on the same page. I took the obverses, rotated them so the dots around denomination are aligned in both examples and needed to resize the images very slightly to compare them. Out of the four combinations of comparison, this one shown here is the most interesting (second image attached).

At first I thought some of them are not central, but C2 has simply larger stamp. Both examples have inscriptions pretty equally aligned to the dragon, so they match well. Circle is larger on the right which accounts for narrower rim. C1 wasn't struck ideally central either, with that right rim being wider, but they did match on the left. Number of pearls in the ring - 64 for both.
Is it possible that C2 was struck with worn out a bit deformed dies to make the features bigger or it's too big difference to be possible? I don't know much about these things in minting technology.

My example has 70 beads, just like lower one of yours gx (which was struck before mine if it's the same die and I have found ones that have even bigger defects, so newer) and like both on numista have. Some similar web catalogs seem to have either misidentified large circle varieties or like coinsfactwiki do not have them (shame on PCGC for grading that coin that high for renowned client... I thought people will get tired of graded pieces eventually but does not seem to be happening). At first, all varieties there seem to be (nice) pieces that we already have covered here.

So, what is 12.5 mm Japanese type actually? What is that SCWC info that seems to be elusive and so hard to identify? I do not have Korean literature but as read, they do not cover it in detail.

Title: Re: Unlisted Korea 1898 1/4 yang variety?
Post by: natko on May 31, 2020, 08:19:05 PM
OK, so I did a whole day digging around, measuring diameters, counting pearls and finally found the answer, which was also given timely by Dany Kim in reply #14 but I was lead with the initial thought it's some other fake of the time and it was not looked in detail as much as it should (sorry Dany).

I am absolutely amused how even the biggest auction houses together with grading houses have absolutely no clue about this piece. ALL graded KM#1118  pieces I've been able to see are not correctly attributed. Every single one. Should've checked ebay first.

The only auctioned piece where comparison of the two is made and it was done so correctly was:
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3985935 - and we're having the same variety from the initial post :)

Older 1/4 Yang (Joseon) had 80 dots and wide circle with lot of space to the dragon. Line of G in denomination points a bit left of the lower dragon's nose tip and the dragon itelf looked straight right, with its tail pointing the same direction on the top. Imperial 1/4 Yang has 70 dots on year 1 and years 3, 4... The lower dragon is rotated, looking slightly up (more aesthetic IMHO). Line of G points to around his eye. My suspicion is that legal fakes (points a bit right of the nosetip) were based partially on the older ones, dragon is too much coincidental although, of course, less artistic on the fakes. But the exactly 80 dots are there!

And no wonder it was noted as a fake by sharp eyes in time and then decided to be legalized - no coinage expenses and when it's controlled it's okay :) Quite possibly the official weight was reduced afterwards but that might be too speculating. I'm glad all of us here noticed something is indeed wrong with the piece, experience surely makes our minds work brilliantly. In this case, we rediscovered information Krause (and experts of the field like Dany) had.

So, how can we conclude information for this coin? It was by far the most minted modern Korean coin until then. Opening of the Empire to provide enough change for all occasions. Varieties on the official issues are small and hardly noticeable, except on really detailed analysis (remember, it's easy with today's technology but not back then). So all of them have to be official issues. They're too good. Some extremely well made pieces I've found with even more varieties including character differences (10 o'clock one e.g.) show that the topic is today quite well documented.
Since it was not a silver piece, weight was less important and varies incredibly (4.5 - 5.2 g). The Japanese infiltrating piece had weighted in these boundaries but it was relatively clumsily made so it was discovered. Other contemporary fakes must have been much worse, shallow, lacking details and all clumsy.

I have attached the image for the identification tool. (lot from London Coins Ltd, Auc. 146/#1289)

On the note, there is A LOT of confusion with 1 yang silver piece from the same year as well. Both varieties do exist as stated in SCWC but are not listed properly in sales, grading holders of course nor on numista (even the wrong photo of an earlier type is used for one of them, if a moderator sees this, as Korean page is really nice there...) Off to dive in 5 Fun varieties now, it will be fun. No pun intended. Just fun.