Author Topic: Coin of Malwa?orGujarat?in the name of Bahdur shah of Gujarat, legend as in M205  (Read 349 times)

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Offline drnsreedhar

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Posting a coin in the name of Bahadur shah of Gujarat. It corresponds to his Malwa issues and the legend agrees with M205 of G&G. But there are two challenges.
1. The date is 944 that is very  clear on the coin. Bahadur period was over in 943 and Muhammad-III was in power from 943. 944 saw two rulers in Gujarat, Muhammad-III and Mahmud-III.
2. Weight of the coin does not agree with the weight of any of the illustrated coins of Bahadur for Malwa. It is 11gms that fits with 96rati falus of Gujarat. But in metrology part under Mahmud-III, falus weighing 11 gms is explained. 

If it was issued in Malwa, it could have been because the demise of the ruler reached Malwa area late and coins used to be issued with new dates in continuity. Exclusive Muhammad-III coins are not reported for Malwa eventhough some mint marks correspond.
Considering it was issued for Gujarat, everything except weight is against. Since "Bahadur bin Muzaffir" can be seen in full, it could not have been a Mahmud-III issue with a mule die.
Possibilities point to that this is a Malwa issue with a posthumous date due to reasons unknown. And the weight standard of 11gms must have been there for Malwa issues of Gujarat Sultans prior to Mahmud-III. In any case, a brain-teaser!

Probably Jan will be able to come up with some good explanation. Thanks
Dr.Sreedhar

Offline THCoins

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Interesting find ! I can not provide an instant explanation. Coin looks like an official issue. I am not fully convinced about a possible different metrology. Your coin seems to miss a small fragment, so might have been close to 12 grams originally ? Can not dispute the 44 present however, which seems like a new discovery !

Offline drnsreedhar

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Thank you Anthony for the post.
 Your suggestion of this coin weighing less than expected due to loss of an edge is quite possible. In the meantime I came across a coin of Bahadur weighing 11.3gms in zeno. It was posted by our Amit I believe. Its reference is
74537: Sultans of Malwa, M205, Bahadur Shah of Gujarat, AE 1½ Falus.
Jan Lingen has written his remark there as under
"The coin created some problems, but seems more or less correctly attributed: Sultans of Malwa, Bahadur Shah of Gujarat (AH937-943/AD1531-1537), Falus (of 96 rati standard). The coin probably is a transitional type between M205/206 of Bahadur Shah and M216 of Mahmud Shah of Gujarat. The legend is similar to M205/206, but the date in the centre has been moved to the left and is replaced by a heart-shape symbol."
Here date retains its position on the flan, but has moved out of the ruler's dates! ;D
With his remark, this coin can be considered a Falus not a one and a half. Anyway it looks fairly sure that this is a new find. Or may be some casual collector has such a one but has not correlated the date with the ruler's period so far. We will await more such coins to surface. Thanks.
Dr.Sreedhar

Offline asm

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Thank you Anthony for the post.
 Your suggestion of this coin weighing less than expected due to loss of an edge is quite possible. In the meantime I came across a coin of Bahadur weighing 11.3gms in zeno. It was posted by our Amit I believe. Its reference is
74537: Sultans of Malwa, M205, Bahadur Shah of Gujarat, AE 1½ Falus.
Jan Lingen has written his remark there as under
"The coin created some problems, but seems more or less correctly attributed: Sultans of Malwa, Bahadur Shah of Gujarat (AH937-943/AD1531-1537), Falus (of 96 rati standard). The coin probably is a transitional type between M205/206 of Bahadur Shah and M216 of Mahmud Shah of Gujarat. The legend is similar to M205/206, but the date in the centre has been moved to the left and is replaced by a heart-shape symbol."
Here date retains its position on the flan, but has moved out of the ruler's dates! ;D
With his remark, this coin can be considered a Falus not a one and a half. Anyway it looks fairly sure that this is a new find. Or may be some casual collector has such a one but has not correlated the date with the ruler's period so far. We will await more such coins to surface. Thanks.

Yes, Dr Sreedhar, the referred coin (on ZENO) is mine and it was later attributed as a 96 rati Falus. As for unrecorded items in G&G, I believe that with what data was available to Mr Goron, he has done commendable work. However, with the focus on research shifting more to India, from where these coins originate, a lot of new discoveries are been seen and on fairly regular basis. THe revision of G&G is a dire need of the day and it is being done. Our members Noman Nasir and Ifitekar Alam of Bangladesh are nearing completion of the Bengal Sultans book - which, I believe will have more then double the original listings. Dr Paul Stevens had some time back also announced the revision of the entire book - not sure how far it as progressed. However, another member - Tariq Ansari has done excellent and detailed listing of the Jaunpur Sultans. We have to see when the publications see the light of the day. Hopefully soon.   

Amit
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

Offline drnsreedhar

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As for unrecorded items in G&G, I believe that with what data was available to Mr Goron, he has done commendable work. .... THe revision of G&G is a dire need of the day and it is being done. Our members Noman Nasir and Ifitekar Alam of Bangladesh are nearing completion of the Bengal Sultans book - which, I believe will have more then double the original listings. Dr Paul Stevens had some time back also announced the revision of the entire book - not sure how far it as progressed. However, another member - Tariq Ansari has done excellent and detailed listing of the Jaunpur Sultans. We have to see when the publications see the light of the day. Hopefully soon.   

Amit
Thanks Amit for your post. I agree in full that Goron has done more than a commendable work. I could learn lots about sultanate coins only because his book! Many will agree with me I am sure. That has become "the" standard reference because of that dedicated work only. Many coins that were mis-attributed in my collection came back to right place after I was able to procure a coy of G&G. It is still continuing too. And it is happy news that many specialised books on different sultanates are in cooking pots. Still I think G&G will retain its position as a comprehensive single window solution for Indian coin collectors world wide. I will be in touch with Tariqji for a copy of the book. Thanks for that information. 
Dr.Sreedhar