Difference between Indian and English Head in Queen Victoria 1840 Cont. Legend??

Started by Abhay, May 30, 2011, 03:01:38 PM

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Abhay

There are two type of Head/Bust for Queen Victoria 1840 Continous Legend Silver Rupee coins - The Indian Head and the English Head.

Can someone please help in distinguishing between the two heads, preferably with images?

I tried to search on Google and came out with this link, but still I can not make out any visible difference.

http://britishcoins.indian-coins.com/victoria_c1_anim/1_rs.html

Thanks in advance.

Abhay
INVESTING IN YESTERDAY

andyg

That website seems to have the same picture for both types?
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Abhay

No, it shows different images. Just click on the name "Indian Head" or "English Head" and the picture will change.


http://britishcoins.indian-coins.com/victoria_c1_anim/1_rs.html

Abhay
INVESTING IN YESTERDAY

Coinsforever

Quote from: engipress on May 30, 2011, 03:16:01 PM
No, it shows different images. Just click on the name "Indian Head" or "English Head" and the picture will change.

Abhay

I guess as follows :

Indian Head

Nose : Not sharp
Neck : Little longer and thinner


English head


Nose : Sharp
Neck : Fat and short

At the end hairstyle , the flow of hairs are different in Indian & English heads.

reference


Further source : Baldwin's

The new rupees were announced by proclamation dated 18.11.1840. This stated that from and after 11th November for Calcutta and from and after 1.4.1841 for Bombay and Madras, the coins would bear the effigy of Queen Victoria. Striking of the coins continued for a number of years until the matrix dies became worn. A new design, the so-called 'divided legend' type, was prepared by William Wyon and began to be used in Calcutta in 1850 and Bombay and Madras in 1851.
The obverse die for the Victorian coinage originated from a matrix die prepared in England under the inspection of Mr. Boulton [1]. This required some local modifications [2] [3], which were undertaken at Calcutta and then shipped to Bombay and Madras. Some coins bear the initial S on the truncation of the neck, and this is attributed to J. T. Smith, who was master of the mint at Madras from February 1840 to September 1855.
Coins with the S initial on the bust, therefore, can be attributed to Madras. In addition, Pridmore uses two privy marks to assign coins to the various mints. Some coins have a tiny crescent on the left part of the ribbon bow on the reverse. These he assigns to Calcutta. However, this mark is very difficult to see. Some coins have a tiny v on the right part of the ribbon, and these he attributes to Madras. Again, this mark is so tiny that it is difficult to see. However, using these marks it is possible to determine that the diameter of the coins is an easier guide to the mint of manufacture. Coins of 31.1 to 31.4 mm come from Calcutta; 31.6 to 31.7 mm from Bombay; and 31.8 to 32.3 mm from Madras.
As stated above, the crescent on the bow on the reverse (see below), because it is in relief, is often worn away, so its absence can be due to wear. However, this feature has been included in the main part of the catalogue because Pridmore has established it.

The distinction between 'Indian' and 'English' heads is not easy to see, with the shape of the nose probably being the best comparator (see pictures of obverse varieties). There are a number of minor 'varieties' that have not been included in the catalogue, such as reverse varieties identified by presence and absence of leaf veins, simply because these minute differences are very hard to identify.
All these differences make the varieties difficult to distinguish one from another. The simplest approach is probably to start with diameter and identify the mint. This can then be followed by each of the features in the tables showing obverse and reverse varieties. Proof restrikes were all struck at the Bombay Mint and therefore diameters may not match design varieties.


English Head


Indian Head

English Nose



Indian Nose


For more comparison refer here




Cheers ;D
Every experience, good or bad, is a priceless collector's item.



http://knowledge-numismatics.blogspot.in/

Abhay

Thanks a lot, Ajay.

It is rather difficult to distinguish various varities without high power magnifying glasses. Moreover, the coins should be cleaned and shining so as to show all the details.

Abhay
INVESTING IN YESTERDAY

andyg

Quote from: engipress on May 30, 2011, 03:16:01 PM
No, it shows different images. Just click on the name "Indian Head" or "English Head" and the picture will change.

ahh, missed that :)
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Harry

Quote from: sekharkausik on April 02, 2013, 06:38:52 AM

VICTORIA QUEEN : 1840. Obv. : Indian Head, Rev. : Cresent with two leaves , 35 ( 20L + 15R ) Berries, Calcutta . P# 53

Thanks for sharing this.  Its interesting to note the differences between the Indian head and English head. This has been discussed in the past on WOC see Difference between Indian and English Head in Queen

However, Steven-Weir's book has taken a different approach.  It says, and I quote:

The distinction between 'Indian' and 'English' heads is not easy to see, and we have chosen leave out this description. Instead we have recorded the distance between the bottom of the bust and the rim of the coin (1mm seems to be associated with the 'Indian' head and 2mm with the 'English').

Is this your observations too?

Collector of British India, Straits Settlements, Malaya, East Africa coins and papermoney

sekharkausik

Yes Harry, Another distinction is In English head the tip of the  nose will be aligned slightly above "V" of Victoria , whereas in the Indian head the tip of the nose will be aligned to "V" of Victoria.

English head comes in three varieties : English head, Modified English head and Completely Modified English head  each having its own distinguishing features respectively.

cmerc

Quote from: sekharkausik on April 03, 2013, 05:39:16 AM
Yes Harry, Another distinction is In English head the tip of the  nose will be aligned slightly above "V" of Victoria , whereas in the Indian head the tip of the nose will be aligned to "V" of Victoria.

Very subtle, hard to pick this nose difference unless you already have English head and Indian head as reference.  Sadly, I can't tell the just by looking at the nose :( 

My preferred method is: hair curls at the end, together with distance of front bust corner from coin edge.  Then look at the nose for verification. 
Defending this hobby against a disapproving family since 1998.

maxxdetom

Hello Abhay
I hope the attached image can help you to recognize the two head types. Below Stevens and Weir the Indian Head obverse  usually comes with reverse type VIII (35 berries, leaf over E of ONE, crescent privy mark on left ribbon bow and large date digits). I can say more on reverse you found large diamonds below Persian script. Reference is Pridmore no. 53. This coins are Calcutta Mint type (up to 31.4 mm diameter). The full description complains with the original coin I have.