Fake Bombay Presidency 15 Rupees

[Rangnath]

I do not enjoy contacting Ebay any more than I would enjoy being a character in a Franz Kafka novel.
Anyway, I did the following:
1. I reported the two items:  400166336820 and 400211832313. 
      Ebay does not allow any other input than the item numbers and the description of the report limited to a choice from a pull down menu.
2. I called customer support and spoke to an Ebay Agent.
     He told me that I will not be notified of the results of my report. If the item is pulled from the listing, the agent said that the buyer of the first item for $9,999 will "probably" be informed.  Probably?  If that person is informed, they have 45 days from purchase of the item to file a report. If they paid with paypal, they can get a full refund.  Obviously, we can not get the purchaser email to inform the buyer ourselves.
3.  I told the agent in my most diplomatic fashion, that I found this system wanting.  I explained that he was asking me to "trust" that ebay would indeed consult an "expert" numismatist about this issue and that an appropriate investigation and response would take place.  And, that I would NOT be notified of any action by Ebay.  I explained that I am a moderator of a web site that focuses on such coins and that I feel some responsibility for the selling of fake coins on ebay.  I explained that I can not contact the British East India Company concerning this matter.
The agent said that he personally would look into the case to make sure that there was a follow up within Ebay.
4.  I placed 400211832313 on my wish list to follow the coin's progress. If it is removed, I will be notified.

5.  And then I thought, what if the coin is genuine?  So I bought it for only $9,999!  I am willing to sell it for only $10,300 to any of you who might be interested.   
richie

[andyg]

Been there, done that - someone else bought the coin.
The coin in question was a 190x UK half crown with the date altered to read 1905.
The seller when told it was fake simply replied "You don't have to buy it",
I informed ebay - nothing happened.  6 days later the coin sold for £350.

This one is a little different - it's a much bigger price range, but the main positive is that
it is a buy it now - so plenty of time left to watch what happens.  It might be interesting.

[akona20]

Now that we have a fiathful report on exactly what happened in this instance which is almost exactly what happens in every instance further steps can be taken to see have far things can be pushed.

There will be two steps taken now.

1. To go to the seller despite the threats he has on his ebay listing and advise him of the obvious problem.

2. To go to various government agencies to place this item (and the previous item) on notice for fraud/money laundering. (money laundering is about the only way people might take notice). The item falls just under the Australian mandatory international transaction reporting.

[akona20]

I have prinnted the live chat session I have had with ebay. Yes there is such a thing if you know where to look. The version from there was the same as Ragnath got on his phone call. The replies from the ebay operative were rather smug and rather actionable in the view of an eminent internet law lawyer. Some pro bono work is coming up.

[akona20]

The fake has been reported through government channels. This is lodged as an official fraud attempt notification and given the size of the attemped fraud there is a series of actions which must take place. One of these is my right to be informed on what has happened at each stage. This is unlike the ebay process which, if it actually does happen, is secretive.

So the hard part now begins.

[repindia]

I had reported this coin to ebay long time back and have done so for fakes many times but without any action on their part. I am not very hopeful that this will be taken off.

We must remember that eBay did take a lot of steps to protect coin collectors including allowing displaying grades for only the top tier coin grading companies, but they mostly cater to the US coin market. They really do not have any in house expertise and it is difficult to hire experts for each and every category. In their defense they do not know your credentials and so possibly would reach out to the seller and confirm if the coin is genuine. Also the fact that it is a for profit company and their motivations lie elsewhere.

The buyer should have done his research before buying such a high value coin. This is such a  blatant copy that any semi-serious collector would have spotted it. Combined with the fact that there were so many red flags in the auction should have alerted any layman. If the buyer goes on like this then he will soon be parted with the rest of his money. 

I guess some rules about buying were posted here on these boards and every new (or even seasoned) collector should be following these. My rules are to buy only from reputed sellers (past experience and feedback), never go by the picture alone, ask questions before buying (may include weight, description of the edge, etc), look for a return policy (I hardly ever buy from seller whose sales are final), get a guarantee that the coin is genuine (in case of doubt-- reputable sellers have a lifetime guarantee for this) and the like. Maintaining a relationship with a handful of trusted sellers goes a long way too in enhancing your collection.

[akona20]

Thanks to Repindia for the reply. yes ebay is a for profit enterprise however there are several things that are pertinent to all tansactions, ebay included.
Not the least of which is that honest brokers, and fundamentaly that is all ebay claims to be when you discuss these matters with them, still cannot allow the perpetration of a crime.Ebay has been advised by competent people (in this case I don't include myself in that category) that a coin is indeed a fake. Not just any ordinary Roman coin fake gaining the seller a couple of hunderd dollars but a straight fraud netting the fraudster over $9000 US a time. It has happened once in recent times and it is advertised again.
The sale is available internationaly and as such is not just subject to the laws of ebay's home country or the place of residence of the lister, real or perceived, but certain other laws. Ebay has always believed it can bully its way out of problems like this by its size, almost total inability to contact it at these times and get reasonable answers and then its threatening nature when exposed.
At this point in time Ebay is allowing a crime to be committed and a fraud of some proportion is what it is. It cannot use the defence that it reasonably did not know and it cannot use the defence that it does not have the expertise as an honest broker to decide whether the goods are real or not. It has been advised officially on two continets and it has been advised by people who know. The defence being tried and alluded to in the above post is that ebay does not know whether or not the people telling them this is a fraud are qualified to give the opinion. Given the advised size of the fraud ebay must take steps to either ascertain the realness of the product and the qualifications of those advising. At this moment ebay appears to have done neither. So in broad layman's terms ebay is facilitating a fraud by its masterly inactivity which of course has served it well in the past.
The seller on his notice of sale commits an offence by making threats to buyers and potential buyers. Coertion is not allowed in selling. Ebay is also facilitating this.
In this case given the process of advice and warning and given that the seller has also been contacted, ebay and the seller are now acting in concert to commit a fraud in the international market place. In this transaction the honest broker facade of ebay is no longer existant.

[Coinsforever]

The buyer should have done his research before buying such a high value coin. This is such a  blatant copy that any semi-serious collector would have spotted it. Combined with the fact that there were so many red flags in the auction should have alerted any layman. If the buyer goes on like this then he will soon be parted with the rest of his money. 

I guess some rules about buying were posted here on these boards and every new (or even seasoned) collector should be following these.

For ebay I'm certainly sure such type of bidding fall into category of "shill bidding"

At woc number of ocassions discussion taking place about such rules of buying & awareness of frauds

refer these  threads "Buying strategies" and "E Bay frauds"


Due to demand & supply ratios it is quite obvious such things remain continuously happening in any trades or businesses .

The key is who are  regulating to  restrict such malpractices in market. In this case I'm not considering seller as culprit main culprit who is knowingly or unknowingly promoting is ebay.

Cheers

[akona20]

Following the required chain of events which requires warnings to be issued to the seller and the facilitator (in this case Ebay) the item and the previous sale have been report to the Australian Federal Authorities via the scam complaint system through the ACCC. This complaint system does handle international based scams and very effectively, at times, as well. Ebay operatives here seem not to know of this process and rather laughed off any suggestion they could be effected by this process if it indeed existed. Must be great to be above the law.

[Figleaf]

Your lawyers will probably warn you if this is relevant, but in most legal systems, you must be an interested party to lodge a complaint. You may have to buy one share in Ebay.

Thinking aloud here, in most countries, there is an interest in "good governance", the right/duty of shareholders to force company directors to do the right thing. Any pension fund around you will have people working on ESG (environmental, social, governance concerns.) If they can be convinced to take an interest, they can band together (through specialized agencies) in the general meetings of shareholders and cause a shareholder revolution. Such incidents affect the price of the stock, therefore stock options, so directors tend to sit up and listen, but also fight their own shareholders. I believe under Australian law you can do a class action on behalf of the shareholders if you can show breach of fiduciary duty (in plain language, if you can show they lied to the shareholders). Practically all class actions are settled. The right lawyer will settle for better internal governance. Class action is a nuclear weapon, though. Better rattle them with threats first (called "engagement".)

Peter

[akona20]

Hi Peter,

We are plodding down a long, winding and difficult path. Ebay believes and acts as though it is untouchable. Ebay staff obviously are schooled to ignore specific areas of the law when complaints are made. A number of things stand out in this effort though.

1. The obvious scam and a repeated scam with the same fake.
2. The length of time the item is available for.
3. The 'value' placed on the item by the seller in a "buy it now" type sale which is not in fact an auction but an assumed invitation to treat. The laws on invitation to treat here are specific and in fact such a notion no longer really exists.
4. The seller marks his offer with a series of threats and retaliations.
5. The facilitator, ebay, has been warned on a number of occasions and in more than one country that the sale is a scam.
6. The sale is not an auction as such and any shred of caveat emptor that might have thought to have existed does not.
7. Electronic conversations with ebay have been logged and as these conversations took place in Australia various laws here exist for consumer protection.
8. The profit to be made out of such a sale of a fake is above specific thresholds for action and the fact that it is repeated shows intent to defraud.
9. The seller has been contacted.
10. Interest is not really needed in this particular case but I do have an interest but it is not pecuniary.


In reality chances of success this time around are close to zero but we are setting a precedent. However my local Federal member is taking a real interest in this event. Would make a nice little article in the local paper should things happen in a positive sense. "Federal Member Halts International Scam" looks good for him.

[Rangnath]

GO Akona20!!!
richie

[akona20]

Would someone please check to see if this item is still for sale. I am getting conflicting data from various look ups.

400211832313

[Bimat]

Yes, it is still available for $9,999.99..

Aditya

[akona20]

Hmmm I tried tried to advise ebay of happenings but it said that the item was no longer available despite it seemingly available on the main site.