Help identifying this Scottish coin

[lusomosa]

Greetings,
I got today this coin from a colleague so that I could identify it and maybe give it a price....
It's Silver 30.33 g and about 42 mm wide.
Help anyone ?

LP

[lusomosa]

This is the reverse
there is a countermark on this side.

LP

[Prosit]

Looks like a Ryal or fraction thereof of Mary, the reverse is of a tortoise climbing a palm tree.  Price? haven't a clue!
Nice coin by the way and the countermark looks like a thistle.

Dale

[bart]

I don't know much of Scottish coinage, but this one is a cracker! I like it a lot as it has a real historical significance.
It has been issued in the name of Mary I Stuart and her husband Henry Stuart, lord Darnley. She married him in 1565. This marriage infuriated Elisabeth I, as the couple hadn't asked her permission to marry : Henry was English, and a subject of Elisabeth. He was also (as Mary Stuart was) a descendant of Margareth Tudor, sister of Henry VIII, and a claimant of the English throne.

Bart

[BC Numismatics]

Luis,
  The counterstamp on that Scots Ryal was added in 1578 during the reign of King James VI of Scotland (1567-1625) (who became King James I of England in 1603) as a way of ascertaining that the coin is genuine.

Aidan.

[lusomosa]

Thanks for the replies so far, It has indeed a lot of Historycal significance Bart and I'm gratefull for Aidan his remark about the counterstamp.
I'll try to read a bit about this period of Scottish History ( The owned of the coin is in fact Scottish ) I'll try to go to my local library to see if I find out something more about this coin. I suppose that this coin without the counterstamp would be rarer this this type.

LP

[BC Numismatics]

Luis,
  The Scots Ryal without the counterstamp is a very rare coin worth several thousand Quid (Pounds Sterling).

Being of Scots & Viking descent myself,I have an interest in Scots coins,even though they are a very difficult coin series to collect.

Aidan.

[translateltd]

If it's 42mm it will be a full Ryal (= 30 shillings Scottish).  The link to the reverse image is broken so I can't see what date it is.  1565-67 coins in the name of Mary and Henry are referenced Seaby 5425, and are catalogued at between 250 and 300 pounds in Fine and between 600 and 750 pounds in VF without the countermark. 

Countermarked examples of S.5425 were revalued at 36 shillings 9 pence in the 1578 revaluation (when the countermark was applied), and are catalogued at 235 pounds in F and 575 pounds in VF.

I think Aidan's reference to the uncountermarked coin worth "many thousands" is actually S.5424, which is a different type (Henry's name first, and portraits rather than shields on the obverse) - catalogue price 32,500 pounds in F!

Prices from the 2003 Spink catalogue of Coins of Scotland, Ireland and the Islands.

Martin
NZ

[BC Numismatics]

Martin,the date of the host coin is 1566.

Aidan.

[translateltd]

Thanks - the link is working again now.  Don't know what was wrong last night.

[lusomosa]

Many many thanks Martin and Aidan,
I'll pass all this information to my coleague, I just have to remenber to give the coin back to him 

LP

[Figleaf]

Great group id

The legends are:
on the ribbon: DAT GLORIA VIRES - fame gives might
obv: MARIA.&.HENRICv^S.DEI:GRAtia.REGina.Rex.SCOTORVm. - Mary and Henry by the grace of god queen king of the Scots. Note the legend puts the queen before the king and calls them queen and king of the Scots (Scotorum), rather than of Scotland (Scotiae). You sense at the same time a disdain for the immature Darnley and the queen's increasing weakness (queen of Scots sounds like an election, rather than a rightful succession to the throne and it is in contradiction of DEI:GRAtia)
rev: EXVRGAT.DEVS.&DISSINPETv^R.INIMICI.EIv^S - Let god arise and let his enemies be scattered. The motto has strong political significance at a time when Scotland was catholic and England protestant. Elizabeth was sort of invited to take offense, but then, Mary's subjects would have been offended by the protestant Henry. This coin manages to give all parties something to complain about.

I suspect a slight double-strike from the pearl circle on the reverse and the space between the T and D of EXVRGAT.DEVS. and the slight misalignment of the two parts of the date. Maybe double-strike is too strong a word, maybe it's just the "echo" effect of a hammer that came down with too much force.

Peter

[BC Numismatics]

Peter,the Scots Reformation was already underway in 1566,as it led to the beginning of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland.A lot of people forget that Henry,Lord Darnley & King of Scots was actually a subject of Queen Elizabeth I of England.

This Ryal reflects the emergence of the very strong Scots Protestant nationalism,which moved Scotland away from the influence of France towards the influence of England.

Aidan.

[Figleaf]

Aidan, you seem to forget that Mary was quite catholic and so was the vast majority of the population. The Scottish Reformation Parliament achieved that Calvinism was accepted (against Mary's wishes), not that it was to be state religion, (which came about only in the 1580's and 90's, after the coin was struck).

All of which is irrelevant, becsause I wasn't trying to write Scottish history, but to interpret the legends on the coin. They were not drawn up or approved by John Knox, but by Mary Stuart, queen of Scots.

Peter

[BC Numismatics]

Peter,it is true that Mary,Queen of Scots was a very staunch Roman Catholic,but her son,King James VI of Scotland/I of England was actually a very staunch Protestant.The conflict between Roman Catholicism & Protestantism in Scotland began prior to 1546,when the very unpopular Cardinal Beaton was assassinated.

The only coins of Mary,Queen of Scots that seem to turn up are the Bawbees (6d.) that was struck during the first period of her reign (1542-58) prior to her first marriage.I have got one of these coins.

My earliest Scots coin is a silver Penny of King Alexander III (ruled 1249-86),which I picked up for NZ$150.There was no way I was going to turn down that coin.

Aidan.