Author Topic: Schön  (Read 5548 times)

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Offline FosseWay

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Re: Schön
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2017, 08:32:49 PM »
My single biggest criticism of the Krause catalogues is that they seem increasingly unable to keep up with the latest circulation issues, to the extent that my 2009 21st century volume lacks coins from 2005 or even earlier in some cases. I am reasonably happy with my 2002 edition of 1901-date (before the 21st century was split off) except that the rot regarding updates seemed to set in in about 1999, meaning that there are coins missing in the period 1998-2001.

The above issues, plus the fact that the 2002 volume is quite old price-wise and is showing its age physically and that I'm lacking coverage of the last few years in general, mean that I'm vaguely looking to replace my 20th and 21st century catalogues. I'm interested in people's views of the relative merits of Krause and Schön. The language isn't a problem and minor differences in price are also not an issue - spending $50-$60 on a book every 15 years is I think justifiable.

Offline andyg

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Re: Schön
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2017, 11:10:45 PM »
I'm interested in people's views of the relative merits of Krause and Schön.

Schön is I believe a listing by type only, Krause seems to be the only paper catalogue that lists each date individually.

I've always wanted to have a bash at creating my (our!) own using the wiki software,
but for new circulation issues since about 2001 only - coins only added to the database with a picture so that we have proof of their existence....
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline chrisild

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Re: Schön
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2017, 02:04:07 AM »
Quite right regarding "by year" vs "by type". While Gerhard Schön's "smaller" catalogs (the euro catalog and his Kleiner deutscher Münzkatalog) do differentiate by year, he does not always do that in the world catalog. Sometimes the information is there, like when certain years are much more expensive than others. But the lack of such info in the Welt-Münzkatalog does not mean all (other) years are equally cheap or pricy. Here are a few sample pages from the 20c catalog.

Also, the two world catalogs (Krause, Schön) list the coins of a country quite differently. Krause gives the denomination a higher priority, which makes locating "your" coin easier. Schön will rather group sets, so you can more easily see what other denominations were issued along with your coin. Neither the Schön nor the Krause has images of all coins, but I think Krause has more. Then again, the Schön has more info about the designs and the mints.

Christian

Offline <k>

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Re: Schön
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2017, 10:58:02 AM »
At different times, you want to look at things in different ways. If I want to compare, say, shillings by year, I go to Krause, which lists things in denomination order, and chronologically within that order. If I quickly want to find all the issues for a particular year, or even just a particular coin of that year, I go to Schön. So both catalogs are indispensable, I find.

Beyond that, the physical size of Schön (I mean width and length/height by that, not the number of pages) is somewhat smaller, but that's merely a format thing. The Schön pages are thin but shiny (brochure paper), meaning they do not fade, whereas the Krause pages are closer to newspaper quality, and they generally turn off-white then yellowish over the years.

For thematics, Schön is far superior. Krause often guesses the subject of a design and gets it wrong, so it labelled the object on the small Fiji dollar (1995?) as a rattle. In fact, it's a traditional drinking vessel, and Schön got it right. Furthermore, Schön lists the species of the animals featured on coins and always includes their Latin scientific name. That's because common names vary around the world: a butterfly cod fish is also known as a fire fish and a scorpion fish and a zebra fish and a turkey fish and lion fish, but Schön gives its Latin scientific name, Pterois volitans – Scorpaenidae, so that there can be no doubt.

Schön also lists the designer of a coin, where he has the data, but Krause only very rarely does this. Last year I was pleased to read, at long last, that the designer of Tonga’s circulation set of 1981 was Sergio Giandomenico of the Mint of Rome – mystery solved! I also get the impression that Krause is more of an office-bound committee, whereas Schön is more of a one-man-band, who gives the publication more direction and makes it more complete in terms of his strengths, e.g. thematic descriptions. He always has lots of contacts around the world, and he travels to meet them and learn things from them. He is also a member of coin forums and has his finger on the pulse, so he can add good information to his catalog, as it arises. For instance, somebody - a woman - had read my topic on Paraguay: floral set of 1944 to 1951. She joined in order to make a single post and give some very useful information. The information was correct if you looked up the flowers/trees, but if you didn't know the information, it would be hard to find. That info duly ended up in Schön's next world coin catalog.



Schön's catalog is mainly in German, but that is not a problem. Animal and plant names always include their Latin scientific name, which is international and can be looked up on the internet. The catalog is divided primarily by country, as you would expect. The German name of the country is shown centrally at the top of the page, and the local name is shown beneath that. On the left-hand side of the page the English name is given, while the French name appears on the right-hand side. The country sections are arranged alphabetically according to their German name, so for instance Zimbabwe is called Simbabwe in German and does not appear under “Z”. However, this is not a problem: just look at the country index, found at the start of the book, and the English country name is also always given, with the page number to look at - in addition to the German name. Eventually, you get used to the fact that, in German, Hungary is “Ungarn”, so you must look under “U”.



WMK uses its own numbering system for a country’s coins. The line entry for a coin begins with the “Schön” number in bold, followed by the KM number (where known) in square brackets. For example, from the country section for Britain:
596 [1109] 5 Pence (K-N) 2008-2010. 3.25 g, 18 mm

Metals are given in round brackets. Most are obvious: (K-N) is copper-nickel , (S) is silver, (G) is gold. Some are not so obvious: (E) is iron (Eisen), while (Me) is brass (Messing). Zink is obvious, but Zinn means tin or pewter.

Grades are given, and prices per grade are shown in euros. Grades: S and SS are “Fine” and “Very Fine” respectively in English; VZ is extremely fine, ST is uncirculated, and PP is proof. Mintages, where known, are also given. “Ex.” means examples or pieces, e.g. “1000 Ex.”



A list of mints and their abbreviations appears near the start of the catalog. If more than one mint has the same single letter abbreviation, and especially if a country has used more than one mint, appropriate country sections will list the mint(s) of origin (Münzstätte, plural Münzstätten) at the beginning, showing in brackets the abbreviation assigned to that mint, e.g. for Gabon: “[MM] 2012-2013 Mayer Mint GmbH, Karlsfeld”. WMK also includes pictorial and/or literal mintmarks for chief engravers (“Hauptgraveure”). Curiously, rather than referring to obverse and reverse, when mentioning which side of the coin the designers are responsible for, the catalog usually speaks of Bildseiten (“picture sides”), Porträtseiten (“portrait sides”), or Wertseiten (value, i.e. denominational value sides).



Some translations of frequently used German words in WMK:

Ausgabe - issue (noun), plural - Ausgaben; "Frühere Ausgaben siehe im WMK 19. Jahrhundert" - for earlier issues see 19th century coin catalogue
Ausgabeinstitut - issuing institute, coin authority
Ausgegeben ab 18. Dezember 2014 - Issued from 18th December 2014
Bildseite - picture side; Porträtseite - portrait side; Wertseite - denominational side (showing the value - "Wert")
Eck - edge, side - e.g. "dreieckig": three-sided e.g. triangular (from "drei" - three; and "Eck" - edge, corner)
Entwurf, Entwürfe - design, designs (noun), e.g "Entwurf von Geoffrey Colley" - design by Geoffrey Colley
Ex.- examples, pieces, e.g. "1000 Ex."
Gedenkmünze - commemorative coin
Kurswert – market value; Kursmunzserien - circulation series
Kursmünzen - circulation coins
Kursmünzserien - circulation coin series
Modell (plural Modelle) - model, e.g. plaster model of coin
Motivprobe - thematic trial (pattern)
Münze - coin; Münzen - coins
Münzprägeanstalten - mints (noun)
Münzprägestätte - mint (noun)
Münzstätte - Mint
Nennwert - nominal value, i.e. face value, denominational value
Neue Währung - new currency
Perlen - beads (literally "pearls"), found around the inner rim of a coin
prägen - to strike or mint
Prägung - a strike
Prägeanstalt - mint (noun)
Prägestätte - mint (noun)
Rand - edge
Randschrift - edge inscription
Randstab – rim, border
Riffelrand - milled edge; Rand glatt - edge (is) smooth
Seit – since (time); ab – (starting) from
siehe - see: instruction to look elsewhere, e.g. "Siehe Nummer…" (See number…)
Sondermünzen - special or commemorative coins
Umlaufmünzen - circulation coins
Währung - currency
Währungsanstalt – financial institution, currency board
Währungsreform - currency reform
Währungsumstellung – currency conversion
Zahlungsverkehr - circulation (literally "payment traffic")
gelangten nicht in den Zahlungsverkehr - did not enter circulation
Zahlungsmittel – payment method, e.g. means of tender



Several German words look like their English version or are adopted foreign words, e.g from French, so that makes it easier. It's also easy enough to type the few words of description into Google Translate, if you don't understand something.

There are so many coin issues these days that it is impossible to be complete. Both catalogs are indispensable and are being updated all the time, so I would buy one of each, but in different years, and buy a new version every 5 to 8 years, or whatever suits you. As for me, because I'm into thematics and designers, I prefer Schön. However, if I'm looking at denominations by year, I turn to Krause.

Offline chrisild

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Re: Schön
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2017, 11:40:05 AM »
Wow, great comprehensive review. Thanks! As for the composition, that is something that I dislike. Simply because I am used to periodic table abbreviations - silver is "Ag" and not "S", gold is "Au" and not "G", etc.  The Jaeger catalog (same publishing house as the Schön) does that right. ;)

As for the designer, and even the mint, of a coin, that info is in quite a few cases not available as we all know. That may result in a somewhat indifferent attitude, while other authors (and Schön is one of them) see this as a challenge to do some detective work. Both Gerhard Schön and (for the 21c catalog) Sebastian Krämer post in a German language forum, and GS can also be contacted right here. I am sure the Krause editors do that too, but I do not have any personal experience with them.

Christian

Offline <k>

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Re: Schön
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2017, 11:49:18 AM »
As for the composition, that is something that I dislike. Simply because I am used to periodic table abbreviations - silver is "Ag" and not "S", gold is "Au" and not "G", etc.

Sorry to hear you have trouble understanding Hochdeutsch. I expect you still speak Latin at home.  :D

Quote
As for the designer, and even the mint, of a coin, that info is in quite a few cases not available as we all know. That may result in a somewhat indifferent attitude, while other authors (and Schön is one of them) see this as a challenge to do some detective work.

I too have done my fair share of detective work in my time, with regard to designers, and got the information out there (e.g. Mozambique 1975 set by Geoffrey Colley), and eurocoin is already a formidable detective in this respect. I sent some designer info to Mr Cuhaj of Krause a few years ago. He has now moved on, but he included some of it on the numismaster website. As you say, the published Krause catalog is not designer-oriented. I also send and have sent designer and thematic info to Gerhard Schön, which he uses.

Offline FosseWay

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Re: Schön
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2017, 09:48:36 PM »
Thank you all for the information. It sounds like Schön would be a good complement to Krause, rather than a replacement, and I like Christian's suggestion of rotating the replacements (though in my case it's likely to be every 10-15 years).

As to abbreviations for metals, I agree with Christian. I use the standard chemical symbols for those metals/alloys where they are easily applied. S and G för Silber and Gold are at least internally logical; I still completely fail to understand Seaby's/Spink's use of AR for silver. It's neither English nor the standard chemical symbol. Unless all those pre-46 coins are actually made of argon  :o.

I've invented my own abbreviations along the same lines for other substances. Bronze is Ae (nicked from Spink, as I don't feel the need to itemise all the small constituents but want to differentiate it from copper). Brass in its various forms is Nb (nickel-brass, not niobium, which isn't AFAIK a bona fide coinage metal). And then for tokens made of other stuff - Pl (plastic), Cb (cardboard) Nv (näver, birch bark) and so on.

Offline Bimat

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Schön
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2017, 11:31:31 AM »
You might not have noticed, that the catalog is ONLY in book form, probably to avoid to being pirated! The dvd from Krause are wildly copied, which is a big loss for the editor!

I have seen pirated copies of Krause (book form) for sale here in Mumbai, so anything is possible! There is an (in)famous small book market in South Mumbai where you can get pirated copies of practically any book for a fraction of original issue price. Nobody has control over it. It's not far away from the state secretariat/Mumbai police headquarters but nobody cares...

Aditya
It is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities. -J. K. Rowling.