Does Schroff marks reduce value of coin in comparison to its counter parts

[Coinsforever]

I have read lot of discussion about Schroff marks  in this forum , but one question which keeps on striking  my mind :

"Does Schroff marks reduce value of coin in comparison to its counter parts"

For jewelers it is irrelevant once they are satisfied by content of gold and silver after testing the coins , but for collector it is matter of concern .

Awaiting experts views.
Cheers

[Abhay]

In my personal opinion, the Shroff marks does not reduce value, until and unless it makes some important discription like the year, on the coin completely illegible. Moreover, it is very difficult to find Mughal coins in particular, without having some shroff marks.

Abhay

[Salvete]

As Abhay says, schroff marks are commoner on some series than others, and it is virtually impossible to get some types without them.  However, I would avoid coins with a lot of them on the faces (round the edges is not so important unless the coin is deformed by them) as they spoil the look of the specimen.  But some coins are very hard to find, so I am prepared to buy scarce Bhonsle rupees, for example, with four or more marks because they nearly all have them 'in spades'!  Personally, I regard low grade, damage, weak and uneven strikes and hornsilver as causing a loss of value, but have been 'forced' to buy them in some cases because nothing better is available.  You will, of course, form your own decisions on all of these matters, and probably you will need to be more tolerant of defects in scarcer coins, I think.  Not much help, really.  Sorry.

Salvete

[Coinsforever]

Barry & Abhay ,

Understood your views and thanks for sharing your experience about  schroff marks.

Further I know counter marks are entirely different issue than schroff marks , what principle applies in case of  counter marks coins .

Recently  I read on Zeno or NumisMaster some coins were intentionally counter marked to cheat the collectors other than genuine one.

Please highlight on this issue of Counter marks also.

Cheers

[Salvete]

Countermarks are applied usually to make a coin struck by one government current in the place for which the countermark applies.  Many plundered coins such as Spanish 'dollars' and the like were counterstruck for use as current coins by the plunderer.  In Indian terms, the most common countermark is a version of 'Ra-ij' which means current, and was applied to older coins to assure the user that they remained  current even afte 1, 2 or 3 years, or in the territory of another state.  The Durranis applied them to many north Indian coins to make them legal tender in their own north Indian and Afghan territories.  Countermarks were applied to some British Indian coins to make them current in more easterly territories of the British Empire.  A countermarked coin becomes a new type, and a coin of the place for which it was countermarked.  They are usually less common than the normal coin, and hence more expensive.  If the countermark obliterates the date or other important feature of the host coin, the value is normally reduced.  Both the countermark and the host coin will have grades applied to them, and the value is more dependent on that of the countermark than the host, usually.  It is a separate study, and you would need to search out specialist lists and catalogues and experts to get a thorough knowledge of them and their values.  Even the fairly common Rohilla and other north Indian coins with Durrani countermarks have not been well documented in the 'usual' catalogues, and this is, I suppose, a serious lacuna in our knowledge base.  Please feel free to research them if you have an interest in them, and publish your findings for the benefit of all, and we shall be eternally grateful.  I have a few Rohilla coins countermarked by the Durranis, but have not paid enough attention to the subject to assist you very much.  Sorry.

Salvete

[Coinsforever]

Thanks  again Barry .

If time permits I would like to study all types of marks on coins viz
1.Schroff  Marks
2. Counter marks  etc .............

Interesting to explore such additional exciting features on coins.
Cheers

[Salvete]

Yes, indeed it is.  There has even been a group of students in Mumbai (gone quiet recently) that tried to find useful data from the schroff marks, and other smilar marks that may or may not be schroff marks on mostly western Maharashtrian coins.  At the height of this study, some coins with odd and interesting marks changed hands for very high prices (some were on e-bay).  It would pay us, I think, to try to understand the various 'added' marks before parting with a lot of cash for (probably) not particularly valuable coins.  May very good luck be with you if you decide to study those marks, and many of us will be interested to know what you find.  Seriously.

Salvete

[akona20]

aan09,
As Salvete suggests you might make this a formal project. It certainly cuts into an area of major interest I have. Any information we have is open source so is available to help in the research. I believe the alloy testing we will be doing on a large scale will certainly shed a great deal of light on this and other areas of interest.

[Coinsforever]

I am copying reply to my query from Mr.Pankaj Tandon link (http://people.bu.edu/ptandon/)

It is to share his opinion at this forum

quote //

Dear Ajay,

The presence of a schroff mark or test cut sharply reduces the value of a coin, especially if it is otherwise in excellent condition. I did a quick scan of the prices of Diodotos gold staters sold at CNG and the effect is very clear. Coins with the test cuts sold for prices ranging from $750 to about $2000, while the coins without test cuts were generally above $2000 and as high as $7500. The overall condition of the coin, and whether or not the test cut spoiled the look of the coin, are key factors in determining the value.

Countermarks, on the other hand, could even raise the value of a coin, as they are of historical relevance. If the c/m is a small schroff mark, it would lower the value of the coin, but if it is a c/m applied by a different king the value could be higher.

Hope that helps.
Pankaj

// Unquote

Any comments are always welcome.
Cheers

[akona20]

This is an interesting reply but perhaps we are talking two different subjects.

This post is on the Mughal central government board and the reply is about Diodotos. There is a rather major difference between a Bactrian coin of Diodotos and Mughal coins.

I have recently seen in Salvette's collection one or two very interesting and thus very rare unmarked Rupees. Inj some cases unmarked Rupees are extremely rare, the rareness of which is not yet appreciated. I guess if you could choose beteen a test marked coin and an un test marked coin then you would choose the latter. However on some Rupees there are stamped special symbols or devices and I contend that these are an entirely different matter.

[Salvete]

I agree, Akona.  (Welcome back to the world of broadband, by the way!)  There has always been confusion over the proper designation of 'added marks' including, but not exclusively test marks and schroff marks.  Then there are those marks added to the die, many of which we also do not understand.  Discussion of Diodotus coins would appear to be best fitted in elsewhere, particularly as those people who know a little about Mughal coins may well know little about good ol' Diodotus.  And because people interested in Diodotus would not look for information on that ruler's coins here.  I have often been guilty of moving a thread off-topic, but for once, this is not my doing.  Maybe the thread needs splitting?  I certainly would not presume to offer opinions or advice about such coins, but may be able to get involved with this thread if Diodotus was put in his place (so to speak).  there may be much mileage left in this subject, if we could try and stick to the point.  Others may disagree, but that's what we're here for.  Long live disagreement!!

Salvete

[Coinsforever]

Hi Akona ,

Welcome back , hope you are fine and fit to join all of us.

Salvete & Akona20

Let me clarify I asked general query about schroff marks & counter marks in another forum and response I received with example of  Diodotus  , however at WOC  the discussion is being going on at -  Mughal coins forum .

I  share the views  within the  same topic here  again to compile  together  opinions from all  experts. Hence I am not sure if required to split the topic or remain unchanged.

Cheers

[Salvete]

OK, Ajay.  Sorry if my reply was unhelpful.  But I would not wish to put forward any opinion intended to refer to Mughal and post-Mughal coins, where it might be seen as a comment about ancient coins, which are a completely unknown area to me.  Discussion of values and prices is also a very sensitive area, I have found......

Salvete

[asm]

Shroff / Schroff marks ruin the appearance of the coins but it is difficult though not impossible to come across coins without them. Specially Mughal & post Mughal State coins. Counter marks are a completely different subject.

I'd love to know the reasons of the marks and the necessity of so many marks on one coin and yes, I am talhing only on Mughal & IPS coins.

Amit

[Salvete]

The marks added to the die are the ones we are likely to learn something about in the course of this project, I hope, Amit.  As you say, countermarks are an entirely separate issue, and at least for some series, not much has been published (Durrani marks on Indian minted coins, for example) and schroff marks seem to have yielded little publishable material.  The best available note I have seen on them is in PPK's book on the Bhonsle coins, but even there he has found little useful material on the individual marks.  However, I think that, with enough coins listed and illustrated, Arthur and the rest of us might well get useful data from his project.  A good start, anyway. While I was studying Rohilla coins half-seriously, I started to make notes on the countermarks, but apart from simply describing them and listing dates (on the c/ms and the host coins) there seemed little to be discovered.  I suppose even a list and dates might be a useful addition to a catalogue of either Durrani or Rohilla coins?

Salvete