Author Topic: Discussion: New - which became Old in less than two years  (Read 3750 times)

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Offline Pabitra

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Re: Discussion: New - which became Old in less than two years
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2020, 10:42:51 AM »
Well in that case what constitutes a "circulating coin"? What are the quantifiable parameters which can safely say the coin was circulating for the general public?

There have been cases where the dealers get the coin packets, but its not released for general circulation! Then there are withdrawn cases or error coins (1996 Subhash Chandra Bose Rs 2, Rs 5 Tilakji, Delhi Commonwealth No denomination)! Can they be termed as Circulating or Non-Circulating?

A circulating coin is one which is issued to public at face value by RBI without any discrimination.

A gazette notification may precede issue by many months. ( new series circulation coins were gazetted in first week of March 2019 but 3 of 5 are yet to be issued) but RBI press release is usually released a day before the RBI counters started giving it to the public.
The three examples given by you are error coins for which there is neither press release nor gazette notification.

Offline dheer

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Re: Discussion: New - which became Old in less than two years
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2020, 05:41:49 PM »
Either a press release or a gazette notification is an absolutely must for making a coin govt. issue.

From Nehru ( 1964) till some time back, it was always a press release.
Later, it was indicated that Reserve Bank of India is not the issuing authority but only a distributing agency. The mints were given the power to book and sell the collector sets at price above the face value. Then the gazette notification became norm.
If I am not mistaken, the Coinage Act amendment ( 2011) was the turning point. It also permitted minting of coins of denomination above Rs 100 upto Rs 1000. It also declared 25 paise and lower denomination coins as no longer legal tender, thus permitting holders to melt them without committing any offence.

Gazette notification go all the way back to 1995 in digitised format... There are some unrelated gazette notification where references to 1980 commemorative can also be found...
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Offline dheer

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Re: Discussion: New - which became Old in less than two years
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2020, 06:08:08 PM »
Well in that case what constitutes a "circulating coin"? What are the quantifiable parameters which can safely say the coin was circulating for the general public?

There have been cases where the dealers get the coin packets, but its not released for general circulation! Then there are withdrawn cases or error coins (1996 Subhash Chandra Bose Rs 2, Rs 5 Tilakji, Delhi Commonwealth No denomination)! Can they be termed as Circulating or Non-Circulating?

I have my doubts on few of the cases which Numista tags as circulating coins, especially the dual metal cases of Rs 5 between 2004-2007 (Copper Nickel & FSS)! I dont want to have the guilt of not having a circulating coin, so classification is very important to me.

Apologies for digressing from the board topic.

Yes bit of a grey area. Best is use your own definition. Generally in numismatics there are always few items where opinion differ.

The 1996 Bose is definitely circulation. It was after few months that it was discovered and stopped. There are numerous collectors from Kolkata who have got this in circulation.

The Tilakji is a bit different... The release ceremony in Pune didn't go well. The coins meant to be given away were bulldozed.
It's likely that before the withdrawal notification, dealers hand in glove with RBI coin counter official cornered the bags... So I haven't known someone who got this in circulation...
The games error coin is just that... Yes there are individuals in Kolkata who got it from circulation... And once the news was out, dealers cornered the remaining...
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Offline Pabitra

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Re: Discussion: New - which became Old in less than two years
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2020, 09:42:00 AM »
I would like to see the RBI press release or gazette for each of these three coins before I can be satisfied that these were actually minted for the purpose or issued for release.

Kolkata mint is known for its games, especially errors, mules and unofficial strikes. Most of the patterns too come out of that mint. The top dealer of Kolkata, Arup Mondal, is a walking Encyclopedia of such topics and meeting him and discussing proposed new series patterns was an eye opener for me.

Offline idiotghost

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Re: Discussion: New - which became Old in less than two years
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2020, 09:01:26 PM »
I wanted to know which of the following coins were actually "Circulating" to the common people in general & not cornered by dealers before mint released for circulation or had no intention to circulate. Numista lists them as circulating coins.

5 Paise 1984 (5 Paise - India – Numista)
10 Paise (Mule) 1979 (10 Paise (Mule) - India – Numista)
5 Rupees (2nd International Crop Science Congress) 1996 (Beekar mentions in this blogpost he received it in circulation!)
5 Rupees (Dandi March) 2005 Copper Nickel (Only seen with dealers, 1 dealer who had it quoted around 2K in Vadodara coin fair)
5 Rupees (State Bank of India) 2006 Copper Nickel (This is probably only in UNC & proof?)
5 Rupees (ONGC Anniversary) 2006 Copper Nickel (1 dealer had this coin, broken from a UNC set as per him at around 2.5K)
5 Rupees (Khadi Gramodyog) 2007 Copper Nickel (Never seen this coin with dealers as well)
5 Rupees (First War of Independence) 2007 Copper Nickel (Never seen this coin with dealers as well)

Offline Pabitra

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Re: Discussion: New - which became Old in less than two years
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2020, 03:59:07 AM »
The issue of 5 Rupees Copper Nickel coins was stopped in 2004. However, the specifications were not changed till 2008. All commemorative coins of this denomination were minted in limited mintage, with old specifications, for release function purpose but were not issued to public.
Only in 2008, the specifications for 5 Rupees coin in stainless steel were approved and all coins were minted and issued to public. The Copper Nickel coins, already minted and not issued were also issued to public.
Incidentally, the dies were not made separately for Stainless steel coins and in case of Lal Bahadur Shastri coins, the were not found upto the mark. A new die with deeper engraving was made and fresh coins issued.
Meanwhile Bhagat Singh coin was released in stainless steel but due to protests by Punjab, they were not issued to public.
The specifications for 5 Rupees coin were then changed to Nickel Bronze and new circulation coins as well as commemorative coins were issued in that alloy.
Later, when Bhagat Singh coin controversy was over, they were issued with original stainless steel alloy and not amended Nickel Bronze alloy.

Offline Patney

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Re: Discussion: New - which became Old in less than two years
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2020, 02:49:15 PM »
5 Rupees (Dandi March) 2005 Copper Nickel was Issued for Circulation at Coin Release Function in New Delhi 
5 Rupees (Khadi Gramodyog) 2007 Copper Nickel was Issued for Circulation at Coin Release Function in New Delhi
5 Rupees (First War of Independence) 2007 Copper Nickel was Issued for Circulation, I have got one from a Pan Shop in New Delhi

I Have got all the above mentioned Coins at Face Vale

Offline idiotghost

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Re: Discussion: New - which became Old in less than two years
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2020, 08:35:20 PM »
5 Rupees (Dandi March) 2005 Copper Nickel was Issued for Circulation at Coin Release Function in New Delhi 
5 Rupees (Khadi Gramodyog) 2007 Copper Nickel was Issued for Circulation at Coin Release Function in New Delhi
5 Rupees (First War of Independence) 2007 Copper Nickel was Issued for Circulation, I have got one from a Pan Shop in New Delhi

I Have got all the above mentioned Coins at Face Vale

Lucky you Patney. So basically these coins were there for limited supply & circulation & now dealers who have cornered them are asking insane moon reaching prices! In those years when it was released, they never reached down till Gujarat, hence never saw them! All these coins are now few thousand rupees each if one finds with some dealer!

I guess I'll have to skip the idea of having them ever now! ::)

Offline idiotghost

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Re: Discussion: New - which became Old in less than two years
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2020, 08:39:14 PM »
One dealer last week in Vadodara coin Exhibition (from whom I picked few coins), told me that Rs 5 P.C. Mahalanobis is a withdrawn issue & wont come in circulation ever! He was selling first strike coins of it for around Rs 350 in a coin capsule! Not sure how much to believe on his face value such statements! :o ??? ::)

Offline Pabitra

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Re: Discussion: New - which became Old in less than two years
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2020, 04:46:51 AM »
5 Rupees (Dandi March) 2005 Copper Nickel was Issued for Circulation at Coin Release Function in New Delhi 
5 Rupees (Khadi Gramodyog) 2007 Copper Nickel was Issued for Circulation at Coin Release Function in New Delhi
5 Rupees (First War of Independence) 2007 Copper Nickel was Issued for Circulation, I have got one from a Pan Shop in New Delhi

I Have got all the above mentioned Coins at Face Vale

Yes. Getting invitation to release function is always a lottery. People do tend to get hands on some good coins.
Tilak coin in original version ( Tilakji ) was distributed in release function and later never issued. What was issued was Tilak coin. People attending the release function got really lucky.
Similarly, Mysore University coin was released in Mysore and persons attending the function could get hold of packets. The first strike coins were getting sold for 700-800 Rupees in coin show held later in Bangalore. Now, other mints coins have been issued and the coin is available at almost face value.

The above three coins mentioned by Chandra Shekhar were released in New Delhi so he was lucky to be living in New Delhi and perhaps arrange an invitation to the release functions.

Offline Pabitra

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Re: Discussion: New - which became Old in less than two years
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2020, 04:53:56 AM »
One dealer last week in Vadodara coin Exhibition (from whom I picked few coins), told me that Rs 5 P.C. Mahalanobis is a withdrawn issue & wont come in circulation ever! He was selling first strike coins of it for around Rs 350 in a coin capsule! Not sure how much to believe on his face value such statements! :o ??? ::)

According to the policy of the mint ( do not know if it has been amended ), each circulating commemorative coin is responsibility of either Kolkata or Mumbai mint. The coordinating mint is responsible for design and making of dies. They have to supply the sets to each of the other 3 mints and each mint strikes 5 million pieces, at its own schedule. The coin being sold may be those which got distributed in release function.
 I have not heard of any rumours about P C Mahalanobis ( Indian Statistical Institute ) issue. However, since the specifications of 5 Rupees have changed ( bigger diameter and thinner blank), it may be same situation as Copper Nickel versus Stainless steel 5 Rupees coins.

Offline idiotghost

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Re: Discussion: New - which became Old in less than two years
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2020, 09:54:53 PM »
Yes. Getting invitation to release function is always a lottery. People do tend to get hands on some good coins.
Tilak coin in original version ( Tilakji ) was distributed in release function and later never issued. What was issued was Tilak coin. People attending the release function got really lucky.
Similarly, Mysore University coin was released in Mysore and persons attending the function could get hold of packets. The first strike coins were getting sold for 700-800 Rupees in coin show held later in Bangalore. Now, other mints coins have been issued and the coin is available at almost face value.

The above three coins mentioned by Chandra Shekhar were released in New Delhi so he was lucky to be living in New Delhi and perhaps arrange an invitation to the release functions.

Well, how to get an invite to a release function of a brand new coin, especially in Mumbai? Do coin collectors are invited for a release function, unless its some kind of a summit or conference?

Offline Pabitra

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Re: Discussion: New - which became Old in less than two years
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2020, 03:23:08 AM »
Many times, the release functions are public functions and any one can go in.
In most of the cases, the entry is strictly by invitation.

All release functions do not result in attendee getting hold of sample coins but increasingly, there are sale counter for public to buy limited number of coins.

The Release functions are either held in Delhi or a place associated with commemorated person or event.

Sarabhai coin release was held in Ahmedabad.

Normally, the release details are reported on this forum by Kansalji.
He appears to be attending almost all functions.