A Third Reich Commemorative

[Prosit]

It scanned pretty good but it has LOTS of bag marks on it and I would say someone cleaned it a while back.  I have had it at least 10 years so it was cleaned before that.  This coin represents yet another of my projects I failed to finish.  I always meant to search for a less bag marked piece but never did.

Dale

@ Dale:
I have got similar 5 Reichsmark piece,but yours is in much better condition than mine The surface of coin I have got is oxidized..
Aditya

[Prosit]

I liked it a lot.  I suspect that if you intensify the action parts of that movie another 10X and had long preiods of complete and total boredom in between you would have a fair representative of reality.

Dale

I think "Band of brothers" did an excellent job of showing it like it was. It moved me.

Peter

[chrisild]

As for those added slogans on the 5 RM coin, guess they were simply scratched into the pieces. And of course it would be hard or impossible to "prove" that a coin got its graffiti in the 1930s, and not just a few years ago. So there is no added value from a collector's point of view. I just find it amusing that the central bank first would not accept them (obviously for political reasons - a few scratches are hardly an alteration) and then has to ...

Christian

[Prosit]

And had to accept them for the same reasons the didn't acept them (politics).
I find that amusing too.
Dale

As for those added slogans on the 5 RM coin, guess they were simply scratched into the pieces. And of course it would be hard or impossible to "prove" that a coin got its graffiti in the 1930s, and not just a few years ago. So there is no added value from a collector's point of view. I just find it amusing that the central bank first would not accept them (obviously for political reasons - a few scratches are hardly an alteration) and then has to ...

Christian

[FosseWay]

As for those added slogans on the 5 RM coin, guess they were simply scratched into the pieces. And of course it would be hard or impossible to "prove" that a coin got its graffiti in the 1930s, and not just a few years ago. So there is no added value from a collector's point of view. I just find it amusing that the central bank first would not accept them (obviously for political reasons - a few scratches are hardly an alteration) and then has to ...

As a (non-German) example of political graffiti on coins, this example may interest you, a UK penny defaced with the words VOTES FOR WOMEN across the king's head, which featured in the BBC Radio 4 series 'The history of the world in 100 objects'. I believe UK coinage was defaced in a similar way by Irish nationalists during the War of Independence (1920-22).

[Figleaf]

The seventies, rather, but correct in principle.

Peter

[FosseWay]

I hadn't realised that kind of thing had gone on during the Troubles, though it doesn't surprise me. But I did mean the earlier period -- I'm sure I've seen pictures of George V coppers defaced with the letters IRA or various other pro-independence slogans. I think they were illustrated in a book on the War of Independence which I can't now lay my hands on. From the same period came a custom among pro-independence Irish people of deliberately sticking postage stamps on letters upside down as a disrespect to the king (whose effigy was on the stamp). I don't know whether this was also done in the 1970s/80s.

[Luis]

Ahh, Christian, the fact that the church was torn down is pretty sad :-( If my memory serves me, there's an important monument in Dresden that was rebuilt after the war, so maybe they do the same with this church.

Aditya, I am also of the opinion that dipping the coin in acetone will almost surely remove that yellow stuff. Might be worth a try.

Finally, is there a reason why the Third Reich coins have no portraits? I mean, did Hitler ever declared to be against that, for example?

[chrisild]

Don't know whether that Garrison Church should be rebuilt. As for Dresden, guess you mean the Frauenkirche (Lady's Church) in the old town - that was a little different. The ruins had been a monument for peace and reconciliation for a long time; the GDR even issued a 5 Mark coin, to commemorate the bombing of Dresden, which depicts that monument.

At that time, in 1985, there had even been plans to rebuild the church, also because many of the original material (which was still in and around the memorial) had begun to deteriorate. And quite a few in the GDR, even in the government, now had a different approach - at least the "important" old buildings in "important" cities were to be rebuilt. Whether the Lady's Church would have been a top priority, I don't know though.

The Garrison Church in Potsdam ... if they want to demonstrate what an important role the military had in Prussia, maybe they should build one again. As long as they do not spend my tax money on that, fine with me.

As for portraits on nazi coinage, well, shortly after Hindenburg died, Nazi Germany began issuing circulation coins with his portrait. Millions of Hindenburg 2 and 5 RM coins were made, for several years, until WW2 began. Guess that was a welcome reminder of how "legitimate" the new regime was, since Hindenburg was the president who appointed Hitler.

Don't think that Hitler was against the idea of having a Hitler portrait on coins - after all, many medals, donation tokens and postal stamps had his mug. However, when he started the war, it would have been too costly to issue millions of silver (or even gold) coins featuring the Führer. The alternative would have been to put him on a "cheap metal" piece; guess he would not have appreciated that. So the official idea was to have Hitler coins after the "final victory" ...

Christian

[Luis]

Thanks for the reply.

Here's a picture of what it looks now:


http://www.sights-and-culture.com/Germany/dresden-frauenkirche.html

Dresden will definitely be a priority whenever I visit Germany for the first time.

[Figleaf]

There must be a few of those war-ruined churches around in Western Europe. I remember seeing one in Berlin, Coventry and Hannover. The problem is that while they were probably stark reminders to those who had seen the destruction, they become less and less significant to younger generations. The exhibition in the Gedächtniskirche in Berlin is quite poignant so it may well be an exception, but in other places, the case for reconstruction may get stronger every year.

Peter

[translateltd]

I saw the shell of Coventry Cathedral when  I was about three, and was really spooked by it.  The memory has stayed with me ever since.  Would be interesting to see if it still has that effect on the very young.

[chrisild]

Time did not come to a screeching halt when these buildings were destroyed. In Dresden the site was empty (apart from the ruins) and much of the original material was there. The dome of the Frauenkirche was one of the reasons why Dresden got that Elbflorenz nickname - Florence on the Elbe. And of course the church is part of a unique architectural ensemble.

In many cases, however, new buildings were erected that replaced the destroyed ones. They would have to be torn down and make place for copies of pre-WW2* architecture. In Berlin for example the Palace of the Republic - of the GDR, that is - was torn down so that the old City Castle can be built from scratch again. If the Berliners were willing to pay for that Disney castle themselves, I would not really care much; it's their city. But no, as that is the federal capital, about half a billion will be federal funds ...

* Apparently buildings that were destroyed by previous wars are not really taken into consideration when it comes to re-building the past. Could have something to do with the memory and the significance you mentioned.

Christian

[Luis]

It's a difficult problem. I think if one is cynic enough, one can simply say "Oh, it's just a building - just stones on top of stones" and not make an effort to tens to any old stuff at all. As a matter of fact, if it weren't for tourism, that's probably what would happen in most cases.

The other extreme is equally unreasonable, which is that of diverting limited funds and resources to re-building and tending to every single bit of culture laying around. Sometimes the course of history just dictates that old building need to be replaced with new ones.

My perception is that WW2 was more devastating in those terms than previous wars. Or it might just be the case that after previous wars there weren't enough resources and reasons to recuperate ruins in lieu of more practical and urgent matters. That and the fact that it was the last war in Europe makes this focus on stuff destroyed in WW2 seem reasonable to me.

[chrisild]

My perception is that WW2 was more devastating in those terms than previous wars. Or it might just be the case that after previous wars there weren't enough resources and reasons to recuperate ruins in lieu of more practical and urgent matters. That and the fact that it was the last war in Europe makes this focus on stuff destroyed in WW2 seem reasonable to me.

Definitely agreed. In the case of places that were in the GDR (East G. 1949-90), there may be one more reason: Some buildings that had been partly or mostly destroyed in WW2 were later torn down, even in the 1960s. One possible reason is that they did not have the funds for a reconstruction. But many buildings affected were reminders of the "monarchist-clerical-bourgeois" past. Later the GDR regime changed its attitude to some extent, and "important" historic buildings were preserved or even rebuilt. But some were already gone.

In many cases it obviously makes sense, as far as architecture and the "identity" of a place are concerned, to rebuild them. But my impression is that, in a few other cases, political considerations also play a role: The communist GDR regime tore the (remnants of the) city castle in Berlin down and built its Palace of the Republic there instead, so let's tear that "palace" down now and build an "new castle" with historic facades instead.

As for the "lack" of Hitler portraits on coins, maybe what happened to the Garrison Church coin also influenced the decision against putting him on coins. People might have altered the pieces ... and while stamps stop "circulating" once they have been used, coins usually stay in circulation for quite a while. Just a guess though. There had actually been a design competition in 1941, for new 2 and 5 RM coins. Twelve artists participated and submitted several designs for coins with Hitler's portrait. The winner of the contest was the sculptor Hermann Müller-Erfurt, but as I wrote, production was to begin after WW2 ...

Christian